The‌ ‌Future‌ ‌of‌ ‌FEMA‌ ‌-‌ ‌Will‌ ‌It‌ ‌Be‌ ‌More‌ ‌Equitable‌ ‌and‌ ‌Transparent?” ‌

The podcast is about current updates to FEMA policy and what they may mean for future FEMA policy. Recent updates to FEMA policy are intended to increase equity in how FEMA distributes some forms of financial assistance to individuals. Our guests describe those changes, some related history, and how we hope they will prove helpful for FEMA applicants. Also. the way FEMA decided to share the policy updates marked a change that we hope signals a greater commitment to transparency in agency practices.
Guest Speakers:  Tracy Figueroa and Hannah Dyal from Texas RioGrande Legal Aid

Music Credit: Track: Travel With Us — Vendredi [Audio Library Release] Music provided by Audio Library Plus Watch: https://youtu.be/o-rpKzt4KSY Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/travel-us

Transcript

Transcript

Recorded November 12th 2021

Guest speakers: Tracy Figueroa TRLA

Heather Dyal TRLA

00:06

okay hello folks uh this is Pablo

and i

00:08

get started another episode here or

00:10

podcast for the texas disaster legal

00:12

help website I’m gonna go ahead and

00:14

introduce you know our

00:16

co-hosts here and they'll introduce our

00:18

speakers for the next topic here but let

00:20

me go ahead and do a little introduction

00:22

about the project itself so that you

00:24

know we are doing here today

00:26

so uh who are we we're a coordinated

00:29

project between legal aid northwest

00:30

texas lone star legal aid and texas riogrande

00:32

 legal aid aimed at improving

00:34

access to justice for those affected by

00:35

disasters our project allows both

00:37

disaster survivors and pro bono

00:39

attorneys to access critical resources

00:41

in one place while at the same time

00:42

making it easier to connect disaster

00:44

survivors needing legal help with

00:46

volunteer attorneys willing to provide

00:48

it in this way the project team hopes to

00:50

increase the number of disaster survivor

00:52

clients who receive a high quality legal

00:54

assistance as they continue to navigate

00:56

the recovery process after a disaster

00:58

and provide the support and mentorship

01:00

pro bono attorneys need to achieve

01:02

success

01:03

we're here with me today my co-hosts are

01:05

amy allen from legal aid of  northwest

01:07

texas and we have belinda martinez from

01:09

lone star legal aid uh that rounds out the

01:11

three largest legal programs here

01:12

instead of texas and I’m going to go

01:14

ahead and pass it on over to belinda to

01:15

introduce our speakers today

01:17

thank you as always Pablo

01:19

our first guest today is Tracy Figueroa

01:22

Tracy obtained her law degree from

01:23

washington university school of law in

01:25

st louis and served as a law clerk to

01:27

judge hayden w head junior of the u.s

01:29

district court for the southern district

01:30

of texas corpus christi division

01:32

she joined texas riogrande legal aid in

01:34

2002 and her primary practice areas have

01:36

included family law wills estates and

01:38

disaster benefits with an emphasis on

01:40

administrative matters and litigation

01:42

against fema for over 18 years she was

01:45

the managing attorney in charge of

01:46

trla's disaster assistance practice

01:48

and during that time coordinated trla’s

01:49

responds to more than 15 federally

01:51

declared national disasters

01:53

because of her work on behalf of

01:54

disaster survivor she received an impact

01:56

award from the property law section of

01:58

the state bar of texas in 2018 and a

02:00

resolution from the state bar texas in

02:02

2019

02:03

she has been a member of the american

02:04

bar association standing committee on

02:06

disaster response and preparedness since

02:08

2018

02:10

our other guest is Hannah Dyal

02:12

Hannah received her law degree from the

02:13

university of texas school of law in

02:14

2017

02:16

and is currently a staff attorney with

02:18

trla focused on wills and estates and

02:19

disaster recovery

02:21

while at trla Hannah completed a

02:22

fellowship as far as the inaugural equal

02:24

justice works disaster recovery legal

02:26

corps from 2018 to 2020 and a second

02:29

fellowship as far as the equal justice

02:30

works disaster recovery program from

02:32

2020 to 2021.

02:34

and also served as a member of the

02:36

american bar association young lawyers

02:38

division disaster legal services team

02:40

from

02:41

2019-2020 where she worked with disaster

02:43

response organizations nationwide thank

02:45

you for joining us ladies

02:48

thank you for having us

02:50

okay

02:53

This podcast is about current updates of

02:54

fema policy and what they may mean for

02:57

future fema policy can you just give

02:59

us an overview of what you're going to

03:00

cover today

03:02

sure so um fema made these changes and

03:05

published them in september of this year

03:07

and they're effective for disaster

03:09

survivors affected by disasters that

03:11

occurred august 23rd

03:13

of 2021 or later

03:15

um

03:16

these changes are intended to increase

03:18

equity

03:19

and that's really important because

03:22

when there are administrative burdens

03:24

they don't fall equally on all entities

03:26

and individuals it leads to

03:27

disproportionate underutilization of

03:29

critical services and programs as well

03:31

as unequal costs of access often by

03:33

people in communities that need them the

03:35

most

03:35

that is a quote from

03:37

a report that was submitted to the

03:39

president following an executive order

03:41

that fema is following and trying to

03:43

increase equity

03:45

we're going to describe what these fema

03:46

changes are some of the related contexts

03:49

in history and how we hope these are

03:51

actually going to be helpful for fema

03:53

applicants in practice

03:55

we'll also note what some of our

03:56

reservations are about how this might

03:59

play out in practical terms we are very

04:01

hopeful but want to caution advocates

04:03

about what they need to look out for if

04:05

they're working with clients in these

04:07

kinds of cases

04:08

and we want to unpack why the process

04:10

that fema used to actually announce

04:12

these recent changes is in and of itself

04:15

noteworthy we're hoping that it signals

04:16

a greater commitment to transparency in

04:18

general

04:20

i think most people in texas have at

04:22

least heard about fema

04:24

but for those new to disaster recovery

04:26

process can you give us some context

04:28

what is fema what is the role of human

04:29

disasters and how does that affect our

04:31

pro bono volunteers

04:34

yeah absolutely so

04:36

most people in texas have definitely

04:38

heard of fema but most people when they

04:40

think of fema probably think um

04:43

primarily hurricanes first of all if

04:45

you're in texas that's what you're

04:46

thinking of

04:47

um and you're probably thinking about

04:50

immediately post hurricane fema coming

04:53

in with you know food water other

04:56

supplies for people potentially helping

04:58

with rescues and doing recovery and you

05:01

know mucking and gutting and all of that

05:03

work immediately post disasters so you

05:05

may think of fema as something that

05:07

exists for three to six months post

05:08

disaster and that's really their only

05:10

role and that's a huge role a really

05:12

important role um but it's not the only

05:15

role fema has so fema does

05:17

um like preparedness throughout uh

05:20

you know fair weather times um for all

05:23

kinds of disaster types earthquakes

05:25

hurricanes winter storms um tsunamis

05:28

they work with local state governments

05:30

to disaster prep disaster plan

05:33

um and then they do the

05:36

recovery work um immediately post

05:38

disasters and then they also are

05:40

involved in mitigation um

05:44

uh during fair weather times as well and

05:46

in the longer term recovery uh process

05:49

so fema has a lot to do with disasters

05:52

even outside the context of you know the

05:54

six months following a disaster now

05:57

the legal work with fema and the

05:59

legal work that pro bono attorneys would

06:01

be

06:02

doing and helping um individuals who who

06:04

need assistance on um it probably is

06:07

going to be in that six month to a year

06:09

phase that's where the most um

06:12

you know disaster survivors that's when

06:15

they're going to be seeking fema

06:16

assistance and those are the cases that

06:18

um

06:19

you know legal aids and you know all

06:23

communities in general that are impacted

06:24

by disasters need that's when they need

06:26

the pro bono attorneys to come in and

06:28

help um because as you can imagine when

06:31

you have an event like hurricane harvey

06:33

right after that disaster there is a

06:35

wave

06:36

of people seeking fema assistance um and

06:40

having issues navigating the system

06:42

especially if their homes are damaged

06:44

and they're not having they don't have a

06:45

stable place to live and the whole

06:47

system is very bureaucratic and

06:48

difficult um so that's when uh pro bono

06:52

attorneys are a lifesaver for those

06:55

individuals because they can take on the

06:57

case and help the person navigate

06:59

fema and get that recovery um much

07:02

quicker so um the types of

07:06

oh

07:07

sorry Hannah I  interrupted you can

07:09

definitely just stop whenever you want

07:10

here but

07:11

i wanted to ask them because i know our

07:13

audience here are pro bono attorneys and

07:14

then listen to today's podcast actually

07:16

i think early on the cles we did one

07:18

about the life cycle of a disaster and

07:20

so they might have heard about that and

07:21

you kind of explain that how things

07:22

change in a few months along the way if

07:25

one of our volunteers picks this up you

07:27

know this is to the cle and thinks about

07:28

you know taking on a fema case for the

07:30

first time on appeal

07:32

is it really that difficult to have a

07:33

case where the regulations involved or

07:35

does this make it easier or what is your

07:36

experience for

07:38

a new pro bono attorney picking up the

07:39

case how easy is it to do one of

07:42

those appeals

07:45

um

07:46

tracy do you want to take a first stab

07:47

at that

07:48

sure

07:49

so um

07:51

we note that

07:52

different fema applicants may be just

07:55

fine without a lawyer just like some

07:57

people who need help from social

07:59

security administration or who need to

08:01

submit an application to establish their

08:04

immigration

08:05

status maybe they're going to be just

08:06

fine without an advocate but that isn't

08:09

true for everyone who needs

08:11

administrative benefits or who needs

08:13

help from another kind of agency some

08:14

people need more help navigating a

08:16

bureaucracy and so um it's important

08:20

that we have advocates trained and

08:22

available to help those who are going to

08:24

struggle more just navigating any

08:26

bureaucracy at all whether it's because

08:27

of education

08:29

level or level of sophistication

08:31

or

08:32

other barriers that could prevent them

08:33

from just working through whatever the

08:35

system actually is and then

08:38

we have found as lawyers that have

08:40

worked with clients in thousands of fema

08:43

appeals over roughly a 20-year period

08:45

and over 15 federally declared disasters

08:48

it isn't easy um

08:50

we um

08:52

have found it difficult to get a handle

08:55

on what standards consistently are being

08:57

applied to

08:59

who is and isn't eligible um and so

09:02

that's some of these changes that we're

09:04

going to be describing here are going to

09:05

make a difference we believe but it's

09:08

still not addressing all of the

09:09

eligibility considerations that um

09:13

we

09:13

don't understand fully yet

09:16

fema has a statute

09:18

42

09:19

usc 5174-j that talks about this fema

09:22

individuals and households program that

09:24

Hannah was describing fema has 10

09:26

regulations it's 44 CFR

09:30

206.110 through 120.

09:32

those are the 10 regs

09:34

that control

09:35

the ihp program

09:37

but beyond that um we haven't seen a lot

09:40

from fema published consistently about

09:43

how they interpret it what the policies

09:45

actually are

09:47

we've seen more over time so let me kind

09:49

of explain what that is um

09:51

in 2016 fema published its individuals

09:55

and households program unified guidance

09:57

labeling it as comprehensive

09:59

um

10:00

and it did tell us more all in one place

10:03

about how they interpret

10:05

standards that are

10:07

um at least labeled within the

10:10

regulations themselves um and i won't

10:12

take time to unpack a whole bunch of

10:14

this here but when you're working on all

10:16

kinds of fact patterns and you're seeing

10:18

how clients feel puzzled about why they

10:20

were

10:21

granted or denied assistance

10:23

we see gaps we see gaps that we cannot

10:26

look at regs or the published policies

10:27

to help us explore so um well we spent

10:31

many years not having the benefit of

10:33

even the guidance that was then

10:34

published in 2016 we're grateful for

10:36

that now and

10:38

the recent changes are

10:41

are like furthering what was published

10:43

in 2016. that ipug we call it um was

10:48

modified and labeled as the now we call

10:50

it iappg the individual assistance

10:52

program policy guide in 2018 or so it's

10:57

on um it's a couple of iterations out

10:59

from there

11:01

um

11:02

and so

11:03

we can look there to see more specifics

11:06

about how somebody who needs to

11:07

establish their eligibility by saying

11:10

proving they're the owner of their home

11:12

hannah's gonna talk more about this what

11:14

more fema might be looking for for that

11:16

um

11:17

in the past

11:19

we didn't have access to those kinds of

11:21

lists and it was more of an exercise of

11:23

who do you know did you go to the right

11:25

meeting do you have the right national

11:26

connection um what are other disaster

11:29

lawyers who've worked with clients

11:30

finding out what did the helpline tell

11:31

you to try to put together how this

11:35

works

11:36

um and we would find out there were like

11:38

internal memos that were occasionally

11:40

shared that would lay out some of these

11:41

standards so in any event we're excited

11:43

about the fact that we there's more

11:45

information available online

11:47

um about this now

11:49

and um

11:51

but it anyway i think that pro bono

11:53

attorneys who are trying to work on this

11:55

there is now much more published from

11:56

fema about the rules that apply there's

11:59

also much more published by advocates

12:02

like us and um the other organizations

12:05

represented on this podcast on

12:06

Lone star legal aid  and lanwt and others

12:08

across the nation who have done a lot of

12:10

this and a lot of that is accessible in

12:12

knowledge resource library materials

12:14

that are part of this pro bono portal so

12:16

there's a lot of things those attorneys

12:18

can do but man if you're pro se trying

12:19

to navigate this for the first time

12:21

really hard lawyers are helpful thank

12:24

you Tracy sorry Hannah

12:27

yeah that's okay um

12:30

okay so um the changes that we are going

12:33

to be talking about um the updates to

12:36

fema's fema's rules mainly focus on the

12:40

individual assistance

12:42

piece and so for those who aren't aware

12:44

and even individual assistance is the um

12:47

assistance that's available for

12:49

disaster survivors so fema also does

12:52

like public assistance for local

12:53

governments and things like that but

12:55

what we're going to talk about is the

12:57

updates are to uh assistance for

13:00

disaster survivors themselves and

13:01

there's a whole bunch of types of

13:02

assistance

13:04

some of the main ones are home repair

13:05

vehicle replacement personal property

13:07

repair and replacement um uh there's the

13:11

temporary sheltering and stuff like that

13:13

but we're talking primarily about

13:15

home repair um so the

13:18

updates uh they they

13:21

there were a couple of smaller updates

13:22

that we're not going to go into too much

13:24

detail about that changed kind of um you

13:27

know somebody who's become disabled

13:29

because of

13:31

the disaster now has additional things

13:33

they can get assistance for so there's

13:34

been some small edits

13:36

but the biggest chunk of the new update

13:40

has to do with

13:42

the documents you use to prove

13:45

you owned your home at the time of the

13:47

disaster or that you occupied your home

13:50

at the time of the disaster and so to

13:52

back up a little bit in order to qualify

13:55

for fema assistance um there's a list of

13:58

things that you you have to show you

14:00

have to show that you have an eligible

14:01

citizenship type you have to show that

14:04

um your uh

14:06

uh

14:07

you or your property was damaged

14:09

by the disaster that you um

14:12

and that you occupied um

14:15

a residence in the disaster area um at

14:19

the time of the disaster

14:21

but

14:21

one thing you have to prove if you're

14:23

going to get home repair and you don't

14:24

have to prove it in other

14:26

settings and for other

14:27

types of assistance is that you owned

14:29

your home now for the listeners who

14:32

do probate or real estate work you may

14:34

know that saying that oh you have to

14:36

show you owned your home is um that's

14:39

there's a whole can of worms there um

14:41

and that's fema is

14:44

also struggling with that and struggling

14:46

to define what that means exactly um

14:50

fema's actual rules so the cfr’s that

14:53

tracy was mentioning earlier and in 44

14:55

cfr

14:56

206.111

14:58

that lists that's the only you know

15:01

real

15:02

um list of

15:04

of uh eligible ownership statuses and so

15:08

the number one way to show that you are

15:10

eligible for home repair is to be a

15:12

legal owner

15:14

um which that's the one we're going to

15:15

be unpacking here in a second the second

15:17

one which is actually really really

15:19

great and something a lot of people

15:20

don't know about but is really helpful

15:22

for disaster survivors if you can show

15:25

show fema that you

15:27

do not pay rent you're not a legal owner

15:29

at all but you don't pay rent for the

15:30

home you live in and you do pay the

15:32

taxes or the maintenance fema will

15:34

consider you

15:35

an owner and you can obtain home repair

15:38

assistance so that's really great um you

15:41

know we see lots of clients who who do

15:43

qualify for fema assistance in that way

15:45

um

15:46

and then the third

15:48

reason which we're not going to talk

15:49

about too much but if you're a lifetime

15:51

if you have lifetime occupancy rights to

15:53

a home

15:54

but the formal title is vested in

15:56

someone else you can also obtain home

15:58

repair assistance um so look going back

16:00

to

16:01

a legal owner

16:03

that is the standard however fema

16:06

operates in all 50 states it operates in

16:08

territories in theory they're supposed

16:10

to use the standard of ownership the

16:12

state uses

16:13

but again as those who work in probate

16:15

and real estate already know states have

16:18

different standards states do things

16:20

that are weird um and the people at fema

16:23

who are looking at these documents and

16:25

reviewing these documents to to

16:27

determine whether or not an individual

16:28

owns their home

16:30

are

16:30

almost never attorneys so they're

16:33

they're

16:34

trying to interpret ownership documents

16:37

that they already don't understand and

16:39

in a whole bunch of different

16:40

jurisdictions so it is it's a it's a

16:42

difficult task um luckily the there was

16:46

a list of certain types of home

16:49

ownership documents that we had before

16:51

the new list the other the changes the

16:54

updates um lay out in more detail what

16:57

some of the documents are that fema will

17:00

accept and this is really beneficial um

17:03

a for

17:05

the um

17:06

the fema caseworkers because you know

17:08

you can now they have this list of

17:10

documents that should be acceptable and

17:12

b i mean it's helpful for pro se clients

17:14

it's helpful for pro bono attorneys who

17:16

are new to fema work because they can

17:19

look at it and see

17:20

you know they can cite to this and their

17:22

letter to fema and say no no it says in

17:25

that update that you're supposed to

17:26

accept this document you need to accept

17:28

this document um

17:30

so it's it's uh the the updated list is

17:34

we hope going to be uh extremely

17:37

beneficial to um

17:40

to uh individuals who who have had

17:42

trouble in the past uh showing that they

17:45

are um

17:47

the legal owners to their land and one

17:50

thing that um

17:52

is still tricky and i think tracy's

17:54

gonna talk about more later is people

17:56

who have heirship properties um

17:58

which which i'll leave uh her to talk

18:01

about that in a minute

18:06

so you said that there was now um

18:10

a longer list of acceptable documents

18:12

so what's the significance of that who

18:14

does it help the most

18:16

so um i i think it most helps

18:20

um

18:21

you know low-income

18:23

minority groups of people who are the

18:26

ones who struggle to

18:28

um

18:29

get the

18:31

standard traditional you know warranty

18:33

deed

18:33

the most um

18:36

you know i think i think some some

18:37

people may know there's been a lot of

18:39

publicity lately about the the heirship

18:41

properties which are you know properties

18:43

that are owned by family

18:46

in theory and you know to break it down

18:47

to the the simplest definition it's it's

18:50

a piece of property that's owned by a

18:51

family and title has not been cleared

18:52

for a really long time so there's dozens

18:55

if not

18:56

you know hundreds potentially depending

18:58

on how long its title has it's been

19:00

since title's been cleared potentially

19:01

hundreds of owners and no one can can

19:05

settle um

19:06

you know and everybody can't you can't

19:08

get everybody together you can't even

19:09

identify all of the owners but a lot of

19:11

that

19:12

those types of situations we see a lot

19:16

just slightly less confident but we have

19:18

a lot of people who haven't cleared

19:20

titles since the 70s or the 80s and

19:21

there's maybe 20 30 owners i haven't

19:24

seen too many where there's hundreds but

19:25

there we've there's a lot where there's

19:27

20 or 30 owners and you can't get

19:28

everybody on the same page um those

19:31

people

19:32

often get in those situations because

19:34

they do not have access to attorneys to

19:36

clear title um

19:38

and they don't have the resources to do

19:41

it and they don't know that they need to

19:43

they think that you know a mom wrote a

19:45

will i think it's somewhere she said she

19:47

left me the property i don't need to do

19:49

anything about that and they never ask

19:51

anybody

19:52

and nothing ever gets done and now they

19:54

have no

19:55

um ownership documents so

19:58

this acceptable list

20:01

uh the the new acceptable list of

20:03

documents

20:04

um for a family in that situation

20:08

one one thing we might do if you can get

20:10

the family on the same page is an

20:12

affidavit of heirship so for those of you

20:15

who aren't unfamiliar with affidavit of

20:16

heirship in texas um an affidavit of

20:19

heirship is a non-judicial method of

20:22

settling title where essentially you

20:24

just lay out the facts of um

20:28

the the person who's passed away you lay

20:29

out the facts of their life and

20:30

establish who their legal heirs are

20:33

under intestate laws so if they had no

20:35

will um you can explain

20:37

these three children are now the owners

20:39

two of the children sign their property

20:41

rights over to

20:43

our person who lives in the house and is

20:44

a disaster survivor and now that person

20:46

is the sole owner of the property um

20:49

and i'm only licensed in texas but my

20:51

understanding is that affidavits of

20:52

heirship are not super common in other

20:54

states so historically

20:58

somebody who has that affidavit of

21:00

heirship and deeds they're they are the

21:02

legal owner under texas law so they've

21:04

always been

21:06

eligible for fema's assistance because

21:09

they're the legal owner they meet the

21:10

standard under the cfr but what we see

21:13

happen

21:14

um is that aoh that affidavit of heirship

21:16

goes to fema

21:18

and fema has no idea what it is or what

21:21

trips people up a lot is fema has this

21:24

rule that says that this that that

21:26

document has to be done has to be in

21:28

effect

21:29

at the time of the disaster so if you

21:32

don't know you need to clear title and

21:33

you do it after the disaster the dates

21:36

on that affidavit of heirship may be

21:37

after the disaster now it's effective

21:39

before the disaster but fema doesn't

21:41

know how to read the document and they

21:42

can't figure that part out so then your

21:45

client gets denied because

21:47

um

21:48

fema doesn't know how to read the

21:49

document even though they are completely

21:51

eligible um

21:53

for the assistance so that our hope that

21:55

long explanation is is who we hope this

21:58

this longer list will help is the people

22:01

who

22:02

are in those situations um and who

22:04

aren't going to be able to get you know

22:06

Warranty deed with the deed of trust that's

22:08

super clean and neat and everyone

22:10

recognizes

22:11

they're going to get the messier

22:13

version

22:16

if i could expand on that a little bit

22:17

too one of the other things that's

22:20

important about these changes that fema

22:21

has made is they've actually expanded

22:23

the

22:25

period of time

22:26

for these documents to be considered

22:28

acceptable um before these changes

22:32

when there were certain documents that

22:34

fema was willing to accept as evidence

22:36

that somebody could demonstrate

22:38

occupancy in a home or ownership of a

22:40

home they were looking for documents

22:42

that had a date that was like three

22:44

months before the disaster occurred if

22:46

it was earlier than that or if it was

22:48

later than that

22:50

it wasn't considered

22:52

valid evidence for this it is now

22:55

expanded so that if it's dated within a

22:57

year before the disaster or within the

22:59

disaster period as they've got defined

23:01

here it's acceptable so i appreciate

23:04

that nod to the fact that um

23:07

clients that we work with we're not

23:09

necessarily going to have all of these

23:11

documents clean and in a row and all of

23:14

that you know and so if we were working

23:15

on these things in a reactive way

23:18

disaster occurs what do i need to

23:20

demonstrate i truly was the owner of my

23:23

home at the time of the disaster

23:25

but gee i can only get this document

23:27

prepared now that the disasters already

23:29

occurred you know will fema consider it

23:31

now that is explicitly to be allowed so

23:34

i think that that should help both the

23:37

clients that we work with and hopefully

23:39

the many clients who don't actually get

23:41

to work with an advocate

23:43

as they're pressing their own facts so i

23:45

think that expanded timing is going to

23:46

be really helpful

23:48

and then as hannah noted

23:50

fema has consistently allowed

23:53

um people to demonstrate that they meet

23:56

fema's definition of owner occupancy

23:59

by

24:01

showing that if you're not the legal

24:02

owner you're still a person who lived in

24:04

the home rent-free

24:06

and have been responsible for

24:08

maintenance of the home before the

24:09

disaster and fema has now

24:12

in this recent change explicitly said

24:16

we're going to accept receipts for major

24:18

repairs for a five-year period before

24:21

the disaster as evidence of that um

24:26

reason you should be treated as the

24:27

owner of the property for purposes of

24:29

receiving home repair assistance and so

24:31

that's

24:32

a clearer

24:33

way of um identifying what we would need

24:36

to help clients put together in order to

24:39

demonstrate that and

24:41

fema used to label that as a last resort

24:43

type of option and they're explicitly

24:45

saying now we're not going to call it a

24:47

last resort that's just acceptable proof

24:50

in the list with everything else so

24:51

again we think that's going to help um

24:54

and hannah may have mentioned some of

24:56

this but i want to note you know

24:58

when you're talking about equity when

25:00

you're talking about

25:01

our clients who are low income um and

25:05

for a variety of reasons that includes

25:08

minority populations um

25:11

there are reasons that it is

25:13

particularly difficult for clients to

25:15

navigate this bureaucracy and easily

25:17

hand to fema the proof that was easiest

25:20

for them to recognize you know if

25:22

everybody could just hand over a deed

25:24

you know to show they're the owner easy

25:26

check off that box and move on

25:28

but

25:29

if you don't have money to have lawyers

25:32

involved when you purchase a home if

25:35

you're not participating in

25:38

methods that involve traditional

25:39

financing with paperwork prepared by

25:42

lawyers on one or both ends of the

25:43

transaction if you are getting into your

25:46

home through

25:48

alternative forms like

25:50

executory contracts or contracts for deed

25:53

if you are

25:54

having informal transactions because

25:57

that's how you can afford to actually

25:58

have a home you know um

26:01

let's talk a bit about mobile homes and

26:03

travel trailers these are the primary

26:05

residences for some of the clients that

26:06

we work with and clients whose homes are

26:09

more likely than others to be damaged

26:11

you're talking about windstorm damage

26:13

you know um

26:14

fema is taking note of that in here

26:18

and um increasing the ways that people

26:21

would be able to demonstrate this was my

26:24

home

26:25

and i was the owner so please

26:28

give me the assistance i need to make it

26:30

habitable again

26:33

hannah do you have anything to add on

26:34

that point

26:37

um

26:39

no i don't i don't think so other than

26:41

just i'll i guess a little bit um the

26:44

the one thing about this because this is

26:46

it is a great update the update is

26:48

really helpful um the new list of

26:50

documents is great i will say um

26:53

it is it does still depend on um

26:58

the fema case workers

27:00

they still have to actually recognize

27:01

the document yeah the list says the

27:03

affidavit of heirship is acceptable but

27:06

you know affidavit of heirship

27:08

don't exist in every state so

27:10

what if somebody submits it from you

27:12

know a state where it's not acceptable

27:15

like what what are the different um

27:18

they still have to recognize which

27:19

states have those documents and if it's

27:21

a correct version of that document and

27:23

those things so it is very possible you

27:25

know we haven't really seen

27:27

these rules go into effect in a major

27:29

way with lots and lots of clients where

27:31

we can see if it's actually being

27:32

followed by fema so there's still a

27:35

strong chance that someone with that

27:37

affidavit of heirship and two warranty

27:38

deeds or whatever it is that they have

27:40

to show their title um they submit all

27:43

those documents to fema it's on the list

27:45

and fema is still like well i don't know

27:47

if i recognize

27:48

this doesn't look like a valid affidavit

27:50

of heirship to me so that is still

27:52

something that may happen um

27:54

and it's something that you know if you

27:56

if you are doing you know a case post

27:59

hurricane and you have somebody come in

28:01

um who looks to you like a clear owner

28:04

and then you're like this why is this

28:06

person been denied it could just be that

28:08

fema doesn't fema still isn't

28:09

interpreting the documents correctly

28:16

and i would like to say for the pro bono

28:18

attorneys listening we're throwing out

28:20

affidavit of heirship and a bunch of

28:21

other title clearing terms

28:23

generally for fema's purposes um like

28:26

she said now if you are living in the

28:28

residence and you're paying taxes that

28:30

counts which that's a huge advantage i

28:31

wish we had that right after harvey

28:33

because the number one reason for denial

28:35

is generally tile clearing issues

28:37

but for the attorneys out there an

28:39

affidavit of heirship

28:41

it's not a time-consuming document

28:43

if they can get their witnesses

28:44

together you're looking at

28:47

maybe a day of work day or two of work a

28:49

few hours

28:50

and even if you want to go further with

28:52

that if you can't actually clear the

28:53

title down to one owner and do something

28:56

called a transfer of death deed

28:59

that's also not a time-consuming process

29:00

it's filling out paperwork and filing

29:02

and with that not only have you cleared

29:04

title for that generation you've set up

29:06

the next generation for success so when

29:10

in the houston area we do flood

29:11

again

29:12

that next generation does not have to go

29:14

through the same issues

29:16

that the current generation did

29:18

so

29:19

just want to throw that out there and on

29:21

that

29:22

actually if i if i may um this is

29:24

actually something that i if you ever

29:26

talk to me in real life for more than

29:27

two minutes about pro bono and disaster

29:29

work you will hear this rant because um

29:31

i i think it's fantastic that after a

29:34

disaster like harvey lots of pro bono

29:36

attorneys want to volunteer i think it's

29:37

great and it's needed and it's helpful

29:39

but

29:41

some sometimes that aoh is super easy it

29:43

takes you you know half a day and you're

29:45

done and you've cleared title for a

29:47

person but if if you

29:49

in blue skies times in in no there is no

29:52

um hurricane in the gulf are doing a

29:55

little bit of that or even if you're not

29:57

super ready to do title clearing but you

30:00

want to do

30:01

um

30:02

like belinda mentioned if you want to do

30:04

transfer on death deed preparation so

30:06

that somebody doesn't end up in the mess

30:09

of not having clear title that is in my

30:12

opinion a far more necessary um

30:16

uh

30:17

use of pro bono time than um

30:20

even the fema appeals immediately posted

30:23

after so if you want to if you live

30:24

especially if you live in you know the

30:26

gulf coast or an area that gets hit by

30:27

disasters or you know dallas which gets

30:29

hit by tornadoes do

30:32

title clearing if you're able to um and

30:35

and will and todd's preparations to help

30:37

people not get in this mess and that is

30:40

a massive help to people um for disaster

30:43

prep

30:44

then for our clients in the gulf coast

30:46

make sure they put those documents in

30:47

that plastic uh bag to seal it well it

30:50

doesn't get away when there's a flood

30:51

yeah we've had that cle too amy i think

30:53

you had a question

30:55

i just wanted to point out that those

30:56

documents are easy to find too

30:58

um as a pro bono attorney if you don't

31:00

know where to find them you can

31:02

certainly you know look around but

31:03

they're easy to find easy to execute

31:05

clearly to understand

31:07

um and i love the way that hannah was

31:09

putting it it's you know kind of the

31:11

put in a penny now and it's worth a

31:13

pound later

31:15

um

31:15

way more helpful to get that done

31:17

beforehand and explain to people why

31:19

that's so important because they do they

31:21

think that the husband dies the wife

31:22

automatically gets the house and that's

31:24

not necessarily the case

31:26

so yeah an ounce of prevention is that

31:28

the old saying

31:30

i would also like to add for our

31:32

volunteers texas disaster legal help

31:35

uh does have a knowledge resource

31:37

library which we do have those documents

31:38

available as well as instructions and

31:41

pro tips on filling them out and filing

31:43

them

31:45

if i can um put this in an even broader

31:48

context too it the need to clear title

31:52

is so important for disaster survivors

31:55

not just for fema that's just usually

31:56

the first front where we're addressing

31:59

it and their eligibility for home repair

32:00

assistance but um in those situations

32:03

we're looking at what are fema's

32:04

standards how can we most efficiently

32:06

help them meet that

32:08

standard but then beyond that um if they

32:11

only get

32:12

you know a limited amount from fema they

32:14

might be eligible for

32:16

um for i'm sorry disaster assistance

32:18

from other entities other federal

32:20

funding streams or other local programs

32:23

and so the standards for each of those

32:25

programs we might not know right after

32:27

the disaster occurs we might know a year

32:30

later when they're written as they're

32:32

finally getting around to distributing

32:33

funds that came through a different

32:35

funding stream but there are just

32:37

multiple scenarios where disaster

32:39

survivors who are seeking assistance

32:41

with

32:42

home repair funds or assistance in kind

32:45

repairs or even replacement of their

32:47

home have to demonstrate title so i

32:49

think that's a good point you know

32:51

attorneys can

32:52

help with the fema appeals and that's

32:55

quick assistance the clients as needed

32:57

but man even if you can't get them past

32:59

some of these hurdles in the fema appeal

33:02

to the extent you can remain engaged and

33:04

help them sort out the title issues it

33:05

might pay dividends later with the

33:07

different program so

33:09

and

33:10

you know i'm

33:12

uh

33:13

kind of jumping off of that

33:15

um i did want to kind of circle back to

33:17

how this is an equity issue because

33:19

tracy mentioned that in kind of our

33:20

introduction why this is

33:22

has to do with equity and i think what

33:25

tracy just pointed out really highlights

33:28

um

33:29

how this is you know a racial

33:31

equity issue

33:33

um so

33:34

like tracy said

33:35

those those big programs with like big

33:38

rebuilds usually do come further down

33:40

the line but those are the programs that

33:43

really get people

33:45

back to where they were pre-disaster

33:46

fema is great and it comes quickly and

33:49

allows you know for the people who can

33:52

get it it allows you know things

33:55

to you know damage to start being

33:57

repaired but

33:59

you know fema will tell you themselves

34:00

that they're not intended to get you

34:02

back to the the place you were before

34:05

the disaster it's just supposed to make

34:07

your house livable not

34:09

back to where you were so the people who

34:11

really recover completely and go on

34:14

about normal life are the ones who i

34:16

mean a have insurance and can navigate

34:18

that successfully or b end up getting

34:20

assistance from one of these rebuild

34:22

programs where you just get a new house

34:24

and you get actually put back on your

34:25

feet

34:26

and those are the ones that it's much

34:29

harder to wiggle around

34:31

the

34:32

ownership standard for most of those

34:34

programs um which i think is what tracy

34:36

was saying a minute ago for fema you can

34:39

kind of push around it with what we've

34:41

talked about already if you can show

34:42

you're not a renter um

34:44

and that you or that you don't pay rent

34:47

and that you do pay for maintenance um

34:50

you can you can get the fema assistance

34:52

but that is

34:53

almost certainly not going to cut it for

34:56

charities for um big uh

35:00

rebuild projects that come down the line

35:02

so the people who recover are the ones

35:05

who do actually have clear title and

35:08

um as we know

35:10

and you can you know find research out

35:12

here out there to support this um

35:15

the people who

35:16

are able to get clear title are

35:17

typically wealthier white individuals

35:20

you know low-income individuals are

35:22

typically are disproportionately black

35:24

and brown people and it is more much

35:26

more difficult for them to get clear

35:28

title for a host of reasons partially

35:30

because um you know systemic racism in

35:33

this country has pushed black and brown

35:35

people into poverty so it's harder for

35:37

them to afford attorneys and then a lot

35:39

of the heirship property cases where

35:40

title hasn't been cleared since 1910

35:43

that happened because a black family

35:45

owned a house in 1910 and was not able

35:48

you can you can kind of use your

35:49

imagination to think about what going

35:51

through a title clearing process would

35:54

have been for a black family in 1910. so

35:57

it they this they've ended up in this

35:59

mess because of the racial inequity that

36:01

we have in this country um and so

36:05

working with those individuals to try to

36:07

get clear title

36:09

so that when the big projects come down

36:11

they can get a rebuilt house um that's

36:14

how this is a racial equity issue i feel

36:16

like sometimes people it's hard for them

36:18

to make that connection but that that um

36:21

is how racial equity and disaster relief

36:24

are kind of connected

36:28

absolutely um

36:30

thank you for hitting on that because i

36:32

kind of that's one of my soap boxes too

36:34

so thank you for mentioning that

36:37

and like you said it's a racial inequity

36:39

issue and then they don't necessarily

36:41

make the process very easy

36:43

um i always like to tell people i ended

36:45

up working at the disaster relief unit

36:47

for lone star because i was a harvey

36:50

survivor

36:51

i'm an attorney my husband has a

36:53

doctorate in physics

36:55

we were having problems with the process

36:57

and then i was looking to my neighbors

36:58

to my right and left and i was getting

37:00

full funds they were not well why

37:04

and i lived in a predominantly hispanic

37:06

neighborhood so there was language

37:07

issues there was education issues we had

37:09

heirship property in our neighborhood

37:11

because it's an older neighborhood

37:13

and it

37:14

yeah

37:15

i quit the oag and joined lone star let's

37:17

just put it that way

37:20

um but one thing i did want to and you

37:23

may have mentioned this but

37:25

let's say

37:26

you're going down the list and none of

37:28

the documents apply um what do you do

37:31

then is there a catch-all is there

37:33

something that could maybe save the

37:36

appeal

37:38

so um

37:39

i guess it doesn't go as

37:42

far as being a catch-all for everyone

37:44

but there are some people who will be

37:45

able to benefit from this if you go

37:46

through that whole list and you don't

37:49

have one of the named documents

37:51

um

37:52

a declared

37:54

statement from the individual can

37:56

suffice uh if we're talking about

37:58

ownership we're talking about people who

38:00

um

38:01

had a mobile home or a travel trailer

38:03

we're talking about people who lived in

38:05

certain types of environment like a

38:07

tribal lands or an insular

38:09

environment where it could be harder to

38:10

come up with traditional forms of title

38:14

and then for the heirship property issues

38:16

that we were just describing

38:18

that is one of the other scenarios where

38:20

this

38:21

declared statement could be sufficient i

38:23

think it's still somewhat tricky because

38:26

you have to explain why you don't have

38:28

anything else on the long list of things

38:31

that could be demonstrated but if

38:33

they're um if the analysis you know you

38:36

really don't have any of that you've got

38:37

a good explanation as to why and why you

38:39

should still be considered to meet

38:40

fema's definition then fema is now at

38:43

least explicitly saying that declared

38:45

statement could be sufficient and um

38:48

they had not gone as far as saying that

38:50

in the past before this was published a

38:52

couple of months ago so we're glad for

38:53

that for the scenarios where that

38:56

that's available

39:00

okay you notice at the beginning of the

39:01

hour that fema used a different approach

39:03

to announce these changes can you say

39:05

more about that explain that

41:03

sure so when we heard about the changes

41:06

that took place in september

41:08

of this year

41:09

i got to see the memo that fema had sent

41:11

out internally describing what the

41:13

changes were but also the same day fema

41:16

published on its website

41:18

a memo and fact sheet describing what

41:20

the changes were and explained chapter

41:22

and verse how this was actually going to

41:24

be

41:25

superseding sections in its current

41:28

version of the iapug that individual

41:30

assistance program policy guide

41:32

we have not seen it done that way before

41:34

for

41:35

you know the better part of two decades

41:38

what we would see instead

41:40

was clients affected by something that

41:42

we couldn't quite explain and we would

41:44

have to just share information with

41:46

other advocates and ask questions and do

41:50

trial and error on different cases to

41:52

try to discern what the patterns were to

41:54

understand that a policy change may have

41:56

happened

41:57

it just was so piecemeal it wasn't a

41:59

good approach to be able to try to

42:01

advocate for our clients but it was all

42:03

we had

42:04

and so

42:06

in the past we've even seen that we

42:08

couldn't fully rely on that program

42:11

policy guide when it was published on

42:12

fema's website because um just as an

42:15

example in october of 2018 when there

42:19

were some statutory changes because of

42:21

the disaster recovery reform act

42:25

those changes were not

42:27

included in the program policy guide so

42:30

we knew for

42:32

over a year that the policies that were

42:34

published that we had to rely on didn't

42:37

fit with the statutes and so we just

42:39

knew we had to kind of guess as to how

42:41

some of this was actually working in

42:43

practice so

42:44

i was really encouraged that fema was

42:47

transparent in

42:48

notifying the public about this on their

42:51

website so that for instance people

42:53

who've been affected by the hurricane

42:55

that affected louisiana in late august

42:58

were actually going to be able to see

43:00

these standards that would control at

43:03

least

43:04

how occupancy or ownership verification

43:07

was going to work for them so um just

43:09

that's really new and we're hoping that

43:11

as part of what fema is voicing as a

43:15

greater commitment to equity that we're

43:16

going to see this greater commitment to

43:18

transparency as well

43:20

um i will note we

43:22

still have some concerns about that um

43:24

one of the issues that trla has spent um

43:27

some time focused on in the last 15

43:30

years or so it's been the subject of

43:31

multiple lawsuits um against fema on

43:34

behalf of our client um

43:38

in the valley and individual clients

43:40

is um we don't know

43:43

what standards fema is currently using

43:45

to decide what is and isn't disaster

43:47

related damage so i'm just going to

43:49

point this out because we still

43:51

believe there are unpublished standards

43:54

that fema is actually using to make

43:56

those decisions

43:58

and you can comb through the statute the

44:01

regs the policy guide that's online

44:04

other things on fema's website

44:07

you will not find

44:09

um

44:10

those standards in a way that would

44:12

allow you to help a client understand

44:14

whether their home is going to be found

44:16

to have disaster-related damage or not

44:18

that causation question is still very

44:20

muddy and so we actually still have some

44:22

pending litigation against fema seeking

44:25

more transparency um about what

44:27

standards are being used to determine

44:29

that how inspections are being done

44:32

um

44:32

and

44:33

submitted foia requests on that issue

44:36

with very limited uh responses so

44:39

there's there's still a lot of ground to

44:41

cover here there's still concerns about

44:44

how equitable all this is for disaster

44:46

survivors

44:48

but we are encouraged by these recent

44:50

developments and hope that you know

44:52

maybe we'll see a memo and publication

44:54

that's going to lay out some of those

44:56

standards that we're concerned about

44:58

that we haven't seen yet

45:00

that would be nice knowing what

45:01

standards the inspectors are using

45:03

because yes that's

45:05

we saw

45:06

just in my neighborhood alone

45:08

varying differences and sometimes same

45:10

inspectors sometimes different

45:12

inspectors one of the cases i first took

45:14

on was

45:15

one inspector said the home was not

45:17

habitable next inspector came along and

45:18

said it was and she hadn't done any

45:20

changes to the home

45:22

so yes any guidance in that area would

45:24

be greatly appreciated

45:27

absolutely

45:28

well to wrap up the hour since we are

45:30

kind of closing in how can volunteers

45:32

get more information about training

45:33

opportunities to get involved

45:36

so as we've noted from the

45:38

texas disaster legal help portal that

45:40

knowledge resource library

45:42

houses a variety of trainings by the

45:45

partners that i've collaborated on

45:47

that's the trla lone star legal aid and

45:49

legal aid of northwest texas

45:51

the state bar of texas also has a hub

45:54

for disaster and

45:57

provide related materials there are some

45:59

fema issues related to covid right now

46:00

particularly funeral benefits and so

46:03

there are some materials at those sites

46:04

as well and then both of those um places

46:07

in texas are helpful for volunteers who

46:10

want to find out about i'm sorry

46:11

opportunities to get involved and to

46:14

take cases

46:15

but there are also at times

46:18

opportunities for

46:20

texas lawyers to get involved in

46:21

disaster responses in other parts of the

46:24

nation um

46:26

when

46:27

uh there's a large-scale event um

46:30

it is not uncommon for

46:33

the highest court in that state to allow

46:36

out-of-state attorneys to get involved

46:38

and follow certain rules but in order to

46:40

provide help with when there's a sudden

46:42

volume of need somewhere so um texas

46:45

lawyers could look at those

46:46

opportunities and then um other

46:49

attorneys that might be listening to

46:50

this that are not based in texas but

46:52

want to help texas since we tend to have

46:54

so many declarations here um we've got

46:57

materials from other places too so

47:00

um i'll also note we've said a few times

47:02

what fema actually makes available so i

47:04

would certainly check that out on their

47:06

website for some of the things we're

47:07

talking about today you can see the

47:09

actual chapter and verse of the changes

47:11

there

47:13

i think also we've talked about disaster

47:15

time and blue sky time we are in a blue

47:17

sky time right now so don't think it's

47:19

all fema appeals and immediate uh

47:22

disaster recovery

47:24

um

47:25

and that's one thing i think sometimes

47:26

there's a misconception among disaster

47:28

pro bono attorneys that it's just fema

47:30

appeals title clearing

47:32

um but no it's like with the covid

47:33

disaster there's probate issues to think

47:36

about one of the first cases i took

47:38

it had been a year after harvey

47:41

she needed a divorce

47:42

because they divorced the  

47:45

divorce decree was silent as far as the

47:47

house so technically they both stole the

47:50

house and he was nowhere to be found so

47:52

we had to figure out a way

47:54

to

47:55

um

47:56

fix that and in other cases they simply

47:58

had never gotten aboard so

48:00

my with my family law experience is why

48:01

i was hired for the disaster relief unit

48:03

because

48:04

while they were very good at what they

48:05

did no one had any family law experience

48:07

so if you're a probate lawyer if you're

48:09

a family lawyer if you're a bankruptcy

48:11

lawyer because

48:12

if you've listened to our lifecycle

48:14

disaster podcast

48:16

about six months to a year

48:18

bankruptcy because of all the financial

48:20

problems it caused so no matter what

48:22

your specialty is you may be surprised

48:24

there is going to be a case on our

48:26

website for you more than likely

48:30

that's right and then

48:32

i was going to say with that whole

48:34

disaster cycle as hannah was pointing

48:35

out disaster preparation fema has a role

48:38

in that lawyers have a role in that too

48:40

so there are all kinds of things we can

48:41

do to

48:42

help shore up our communities and help

48:45

the clients within them

48:47

be less likely to encounter some of the

48:49

disaster issues that happen afterwards

48:51

if we can take care of some of their

48:52

legal needs up front so

48:56

i just had one quick question we sort of

48:57

do things in different cycles i'm up in

48:59

the dallas area and so we have hail

49:00

storms in the spring and down in

49:04

houston and on the coast you all kind of

49:05

go through summer through fall into

49:08

hurricanes

49:09

is most of this done um

49:12

virtually so that lawyers in dallas

49:15

could help out with problems that take

49:17

place on the gulf and the other way

49:18

around so we can kind of have a

49:19

year-round flow going

49:23

absolutely um in general the fema cases

49:26

that i've worked on over time i've very

49:28

rarely worked with a client that's in

49:29

the same city as me um it you know can

49:32

be a little tricky but you just figure

49:34

out and i think especially now with the

49:36

pandemic where many more of us have been

49:37

working from home and having to kind of

49:39

get creative with different ways to

49:41

exchange documents and get signatures on

49:43

things and send it in we're in a much

49:45

better position to do that but i

49:46

definitely think that the remote

49:47

representation works well for this kind

49:49

of thing and um i also think it's a good

49:52

way for volunteers to continually be

49:55

involved in these issues if you're

49:57

waiting to do it when the disaster is

49:59

right in your legal community then you

50:01

get experience with it every once in a

50:03

while right hopefully hopefully our

50:05

disasters are not our

50:07

areas are not constantly affected by

50:09

disasters but if you develop this

50:12

expertise maybe because of something

50:14

happening in your own area that

50:16

knowledge is still going to be valuable

50:18

those skills are still going to be

50:19

really valuable to disaster survivors in

50:21

other parts of the state or

50:23

depending what's allowed

50:24

to others across the nation

50:28

and tracy hannah when um

50:31

you maybe have this experience already

50:32

so like maybe let's say our pro bono

50:34

attorney listening to this they're gonna

50:35

think about volunteering at our next

50:36

clinic when the disaster hits and

50:38

they're there to respond um in your

50:40

experience how do you communicate to the

50:42

client you know um because there might

50:45

be a need for translation from highly

50:46

technical legal aspect you know to like

50:48

the lay person what you need like what

50:50

that works with clients it makes me

50:52

think you know what okay i think i do

50:53

have that because maybe they don't

50:55

realize you know what they might have at

50:56

home how do you how do you

50:58

bridge that gap

51:02

and silence we don't what happened okay

51:06

hannah do you wanna okay i'll go ahead

51:07

and jump in um so it depends on what

51:09

legal argument we're making but let's

51:11

say that we're talking about somebody

51:12

who needs to demonstrate that the they

51:14

are the owner of their home and they're

51:15

going to rely on one of these things

51:16

today you know first it's just a matter

51:18

of i'm listening to their story what

51:20

facts i think are going to fit which of

51:22

those definitions that fema allows to

51:24

demonstrate owner occupancy is going to

51:26

fit for them and then i just try to

51:27

break it down for them um to explain

51:30

what i need i need the documents showing

51:33

you've made major repairs to your house

51:34

in the last five years what repairs have

51:36

you made have you had to fix this have

51:38

you had to fix that what do you already

51:40

have if it's lost you know can we get in

51:42

touch with the person who did those

51:44

repairs for you and maybe i can ask them

51:46

for it from their records so it just it

51:48

depends on what the facts are and what

51:50

evidence we're trying to seek but i try

51:52

to

51:53

help them navigate that as much as

51:54

possible i think it's important with the

51:56

disaster survivor that we make them feel

51:57

empowered too um this

52:00

is a fact that's important throughout

52:02

with disaster work but i don't know that

52:03

i've said it on this podcast yet so i

52:04

will just mention you know they're

52:06

navigating all kinds of bureaucracies

52:08

all at the same time they're working

52:09

with you to try to do something with

52:12

fema they might also be trying to show

52:14

stuff for their insurance company maybe

52:16

an sba disaster loan maybe the catholic

52:19

charities is going to help them with the

52:20

and so sometimes they don't know what

52:22

they're providing to who and why at any

52:23

given time so you know i'm very careful

52:26

to break down what i need from them i

52:28

also confirm it in writing

52:30

some of my clients may want to do that

52:32

by email other times i'm if they can

52:34

receive mail depending on their

52:35

circumstances i'm putting it in that so

52:38

they kind of a checklist i tell them the

52:40

deadline by when i need it um so it's

52:42

not

52:44

difficult stuff but i think that

52:46

careful client communication is just

52:49

really key here and making them feel

52:51

supported and empowered as you're

52:53

working with them

52:54

i can imagine i mean they probably even

52:56

had difficulty to get to like whatever

52:58

you know appointment you know to meet

52:59

their attorney if they can make it and

53:01

then you know to be asked to be the same

53:02

question 10 times over like why now it's

53:05

a different agency a different person

53:07

right and they also they also may have

53:10

changing um phone numbers and addresses

53:13

because while they're working to get

53:15

back in their home

53:16

or if they were a renter working to find

53:18

a new permanent you know rental unit

53:20

they may be staying with friends and

53:22

family and they may have um

53:24

different places that they may or may

53:26

not be able to receive mail they may

53:28

have lost their phone in the disaster um

53:30

and be using like you know minutes on

53:33

uh uh uh i forget what those are called

53:36

cricket cricket

53:38

yes trust me i know it's a nightmare of

53:40

a service

53:41

right and that number may be changing

53:44

fairly often so just

53:45

it's easy to get frustrated um but just

53:48

try to stay uh in touch with them and

53:51

and make sure you stress with them over

53:52

and over again to just let you know

53:53

whenever they change their number or

53:55

their address

53:59

also

54:00

you might want to think of

54:01

even if you aren't a fan of remote try

54:04

remote because a lot of our clients do

54:05

have transportation issues um

54:08

harris county is a big county uh they

54:10

can be right down the street but it

54:11

could be like two hours away and if you

54:13

don't have viable transportation coming

54:15

into the office to talk to you or sign

54:17

documents is just gonna be a burden too

54:19

far and they're just gonna stop

54:20

returning your calls

54:22

so

54:23

just be aware we also have a podcast on

54:25

that on representing legal aid clients

54:27

some of the pitfalls and pro tips for

54:29

that

54:30

so

54:31

um

54:31

pablo uh amy did you have any further

54:33

questions

54:34

um belinda you know how to sell the

54:36

website i'm telling you man i mean like

54:37

we've got this you've got that you're

54:38

ready to go

54:40

telling you she got a timeshare on that

54:42

that is my job after all

54:44

sorry amy

54:46

no this has been very helpful i mean

54:47

it's uh it's one of those things that

54:48

whenever i think of fema coming from

54:50

south louisiana i think of trailers and

54:53

that's as far as my mind goes as they

54:55

help you get

54:57

put up overnight and you think okay i

54:59

had a house i was living here can you

55:00

just put me in a trailer

55:02

and that's really it's not that simple

55:07

so it's been very yeah you know we did a

55:10

time some time ago we did a video on

55:12

will's uh you know and estates and

55:14

planning for that we did in spanish in

55:15

english and then we're doing like the

55:16

script for that

55:18

uh and we talked about you know the

55:20

client you know what do you want to keep

55:21

your document in a safe place

55:23

uh and then i and then the other person

55:24

would say oh that's good cause i was

55:25

gonna bury it in my backyard and we

55:27

started laughing about that and one of

55:28

the trainers was like actually that's

55:29

happened to me that's what i'm saying

55:31

because like there's somebody out there

55:32

buried in the backyard in some kind of

55:34

like box i thought it was secure because

55:36

nobody would find it there

55:37

like yeah don't do that

55:40

no that's easy advice

55:42

yeah

55:43

so i also i would say let other people

55:45

know where those documents are in case

55:47

you know you do get injured in the storm

55:49

or

55:50

goodness forbid pass

55:52

your heirs can find those documents one

55:53

of the first probate cases i did

55:55

went through a full intestate probate

55:58

guy called me a year later he found the

55:59

will in a shoe box on the second shelf

56:01

of the garage

56:03

so please

56:04

of course documents that's the standard

56:07

place to keep it right in the shoebox on

56:09

the second shelf in the garage

56:11

i'll remember that

56:14

okay

56:15

i think we're done here right  unless

56:17

there's anything more you want to add

56:18

now hannah tracy

56:21

no

56:22

cool

56:23

then i think we're done thank you so

56:24

much for your time it's very very

56:25

informative information very uh you know

56:28

also time you know relevant because this

56:30

recently happened and we when you heard

56:32

about it you know the group

56:34

uh about these changes like we really

56:35

want to have a cleo on this to get this

56:36

going so thank you all again for doing

56:38

this thank you all for being here on a

56:40

friday afternoon now enjoy your weekend

56:42

and you know

56:45

so often when we get these updates

56:46

they're not good

56:48

you know like they just change the rent

56:50

relief and and everybody's totally

56:52

flipping out it's so reassuring to hear

56:54

something coming out that's good and

56:56

helpful and addresses some of the

56:58

problems y'all have been encountering so

57:00

um that's the best word of all on a late

57:02

on a friday afternoon so thanks for that

57:05

thank you amy

57:07

okay bye guys