Representing Legal Aid Clients

Some of our volunteer attorneys have not worked with legal aid clients before. It may be their first time to use an interpreter or work with disabled clients. Since our project is aimed at disaster survivors, our clients are often dealing with homelessness, and intense financial stress. This podcast will go into how to get the information you need to represent your client while accommodating their needs.                    
Guest Speakers: Jessica Robinson from Legal Aid of NorthWest Texas and Meghan Smolensky from Lone Star Legal Aid

Visit our website at https://texasdisasterlegalhelp.org/

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Transcript

Representing Legal Aid Clients

Guest Speakers Jessica Robinson and Meghan Smolensky
Recorded February  2021

00:22

first of all myself Pablo Almaguer

00:25

I work with texas rio grande

00:27

I’ve got my co-host here Stuart Campbell

00:28

legally to northwest texas and Belinda

00:30

Martinez

00:31

from lone star legal aid uh let me go

00:33

ahead and tell you real quick what this

00:34

project is all about and we can go right

00:36

into the topic and Belinda will

00:37

introduce our speakers

00:39

who are we are a coordinator project

00:41

between legal aid of northwest texas

00:44

a lone star legal aid in texas rio

00:45

grande legal aid aimed at improving

00:47

access to justice

00:48

to those affected by disasters our

00:50

project allows both disaster survivors

00:52

and pro bono attorneys to access

00:53

critical resources in one place

00:55

while at the same time making it easier

00:57

to connect disaster survivors

00:59

needing help legal help with volunteer

01:01

attorneys willing to provide it in this

01:03

way the project team hopes to increase

01:05

the number of disaster survivor clients

01:06

who receive high quality legal

01:08

assistance

01:09

as they continue to navigate the

01:10

recovery process after a disaster

01:13

and provide the support and mentorship

01:14

pro bono attorneys need to achieve

01:16

success that's my little introduction

01:19

here let me go ahead and

01:20

pass this on over to belinda 

01:24

thank you Pablo 

today's topic

01:44

is representing legal aid clients um

01:48

this is actually a very important topic

01:51

in legal aid communities

01:52

the majority of our volunteer attorneys

01:54

haven't worked with legal aid clients

01:55

before

01:56

it may be the first time a volunteer has

01:59

had to use an interpreter or worked with

02:00

disabled clients

02:02

most importantly our project is aimed at

02:05

helping disaster survivors

02:07

our clients are often dealing with

02:08

homeless excuse me

02:10

homelessness and intense financial

02:13

stressors

02:14

um their legal issues sometimes aren't

02:16

the most pressing concern

02:18

at that moment so we'll go into how to

02:20

get the information you need without

02:21

re-traumatizing the client or

02:23

causing them to shut down our guest

02:26

today

02:27

our is Jessica Robinson

02:30

from legal aid of northwest texas

02:34

she has a bachelor's degree in computer

02:36

information systems with

02:38

a minor in marketing from Louisiana tech

02:39

university

02:41

she went to texas southern university

02:43

Thurgood marshall school of law

02:45

here in Houston when she first got out

02:47

of law school she

02:48

practiced criminal defense for various

02:50

public defenders and indigent defense

02:51

offices in Georgia

02:53

when she got back to texas she started

02:55

out with fort worth office of legal aid

02:57

of northwest texas as a staff attorney

02:59

in the family division

03:00

where she provided legal assistance to

03:02

domestic violence survivors

03:04

uh soon she was promoted to a

03:06

supervising attorney position

03:08

with the Lassa unit which we've

03:09

mentioned before on the show which is

03:11

the legal

03:12

aid for survivors of sexual assault um

03:14

and she provided legal assistance to

03:16

survivors of sexual assault in areas of

03:18

family law immigration

03:20

and other civil matters

03:23

she put down some interesting facts

03:25

about her, she is licensed in three

03:26

states

03:27

Georgia Texas Louisiana so hats off to

03:29

you I don't think I could ever

03:31

take another bar and like me

03:35

she is a dog lover she has rescue shih

03:37

tzu

03:38

caesar and hershey who like mine run the

03:40

entire household

03:42

so we love our divas

03:45

our other speaker is Meghan Smolensky

03:48

uh she is from lone star legal aid she's

03:50

an equal work

03:51

equal justice works fellow in the

03:53

disaster relief program

03:55

here in Houston and she like me helped

03:58

victims of natural disasters through

04:00

assistance with

04:01

multitude of legal matters as we know

04:03

disaster law is kind of

04:06

a grab bag of everything hence the

04:09

wide variety of topics these podcasts

04:11

covered

04:13

she also holds a bachelor's from

04:14

Louisiana state university

04:16

go tigers and she graduated from

04:19

my alma mater as well south texas

04:21

college of law

04:22

thank you for joining us ladies thank

04:25

you

04:26

thank you for having us okay uh

04:30

generally when we start getting topics

04:31

we go

04:32

very broad just to kind of get the

04:34

discussion going

04:35

um so just off the top

04:39

what are kind of the basic issues that

04:43

come up

04:43

when what would you want to teach a

04:45

volunteer attorney coming in probably

04:47

from

04:48

private practice or maybe a

04:49

transactional law practice

04:54

I think one of the most important things

04:57

starting out to know is that

04:59

we have all been in the same position

05:02

um and so this may be something that uh

05:05

you're not used to doing in the

05:07

beginning or you're not used to having

05:09

a conversation with applicants and

05:11

clients about the types of issues that

05:13

they have

05:14

but we have all been there um don't be

05:17

afraid to

05:18

ask questions don't be afraid to get the

05:21

help

05:22

that you need reach out to us uh reach

05:24

out to

05:25

other attorneys we are always open to

05:27

answering any questions for anyone who

05:29

is able to

05:30

help with our cases on a pro bono or low

05:32

bono basis

05:34

yeah I agree with Jessica I think lone star

05:38

are especially legal aids it's a very uh

05:41

interactive community we all rely on one

05:43

another

05:44

and so for these pro bono attorneys

05:46

don't hesitate to rely on us as well

05:48

you know we learn as we go especially

05:51

with issues that are constantly

05:53

revolving and

05:54

we have no problem whatsoever helping

05:56

someone who just has a few questions

05:58

and are there in order to further their

06:00

clients needs

06:03

and that's when the good thing about

06:04

this disaster legal help

06:06

project as Pablo mentioned earlier one of

06:09

the goals was having a one-stop shop for

06:11

volunteer lawyers who wanted to assist

06:13

disaster survivors

06:14

in getting mentorship CLEs knowledge

06:17

resources

06:18

form templates anything you need at live

06:20

chat if you had a question you asked so

06:24

yes very important and yes we do support

06:26

our attorneys who volunteered for us 

06:31

I know one of the major things I know

06:34

when I was first coming into the legal

06:36

aid

06:37

profession crash course in working with

06:40

an interpreter what are some best

06:41

practices if you've never had to work

06:43

with an interpreter with a client before

06:47

um so we like to

06:51

request um interpreters who know a

06:54

little bit more

06:55

legal terms uh you can do that when

06:58

you call into a language line or some

07:00

kind of interpreter try to seek someone

07:02

who specializes in

07:04

legal jargon because we find it it's

07:07

really difficult when you're speaking

07:10

with an interpreter

07:11

who isn't really familiar with certain

07:13

terms like I had an entire conversation

07:16

with an interpreter and she kept saying

07:19

morgue

07:20

like in the morgue but it really was

07:22

talking about a mortgage certificate

07:24

and to go an entire conversation and

07:27

have that one

07:28

term misinterpreted it was kind of

07:31

difficult once you got to the end and

07:32

we're like wait that's not exactly what

07:34

we were meant to be talking about so um

07:37

I think it's just kind of

07:39

rely on who you're using but in order to

07:42

rely on that you need to

07:44

make sure that they know kind of what

07:45

they're talking about

07:47

I’m kind of curious about that story you

07:49

can't just like drop that

07:50

and not explain more about what that

07:52

what actually happened

07:54

I mean obviously two totally different

07:56

things we're talking about a mortgage

07:57

certificate and a

07:59

morgue and so like right what was your

08:01

what was your applicant or client

08:03

like trying to do what was their goal

08:04

and I guess it wasn't

08:06

probably didn't have to deal with dead

08:07

bodies hopefully no

08:09

well it kind of did because what

08:11

happened was is we were trying to get

08:13

um the uh husband had recently passed

08:17

away so we were trying to get a loan

08:19

modification

08:20

and something was being like obviously

08:25

lost an interpretation between going to

08:27

the morgue getting a certificate and the

08:29

mortgage certificate and I was like

08:32

what I had to be like okay

08:35

translator just in English what are

08:37

we talking about right now so

08:41

that's the little story yeah it's got to

08:43

be confusing I mean

08:44

I’m sure Jessica has all of us could

08:46

probably have the same similar stories 

08:50

I think too one thing that's important

08:52

is to make sure you

08:54

clarify what type of interpreter your

08:56

client needs

08:58

um I have had a similar

09:01

situation where I had a french

09:05

interpreter for a client who spoke

09:08

creole

09:08

and so you would think those languages

09:11

are very

09:12

similar but my client was able to understand

09:16

what it is that the french interpreter

09:17

was saying

09:18

so you have to be very specific about

09:20

the type of interpreter that your

09:22

client needs and then just understand

09:25

the fact that

09:26

if you're doing an intake or if you are

09:28

prepping for a hearing it's probably

09:29

going to take twice as

09:31

long and we have to be okay with

09:33

that

09:34

because we need to be able to clarify

09:36

that the right words are being used

09:38

that our clients and our applicants

09:40

understand the process

09:41

and feel like they are part of the

09:43

process um because all that is

09:45

is important with just getting them

09:48

comfortable everybody no matter what

09:50

language they speak comes into court

09:52

nervous um and preparing for court makes

09:55

them nervous

09:55

it tightens you you know your adrenaline

09:58

your and so your brain

09:59

is kind of moving on all synapses

10:02

um so in order to make people more

10:05

comfortable we have to make sure

10:07

that we are speaking directly to them um

10:09

although the interpreter is

10:11

present I try to make sure I’m not

10:13

having a

10:14

conversation in English or a side

10:17

conversation that my client can't

10:19

understand just because I want them to

10:21

be part of the process

10:22

I want them to be part of the

10:23

conversation I want them to feel

10:25

comfortable with what's going on

10:26

and with talking to me

10:38

also i just like wanted to let our

10:41

audience or volunteers know

10:42

uh we do have a language line I think

10:45

most of the agencies use it

10:46

so we do provide interpreters you're not

10:49

we're not going to leave you scrambling

10:50

for finding your own um another issue i

10:54

know I found especially with Spanish

10:56

speakers

10:57

sometimes they'll overestimate

11:00

the amount of English they understand

11:01

especially if they've been here for a

11:03

while

11:04

also sometimes there's the concern that

11:06

if they say they need a Spanish

11:07

interpreter, they're used to having to

11:09

wait

11:10

a little longer for services for that so

11:12

they'll kind of sometimes

11:13

say yes I understand English and

11:15

sometimes they do conversation every day

11:17

direct

11:18

interactions yes for legal terms and

11:21

some of the complex issues we have

11:23

sometimes no so make sure

11:27

your client is getting the information

11:29

in a way they are comfortable with

11:31

that would be my little two cents on

11:33

that

11:36

um I know one of the other issues that

11:38

kind of comes up we do

11:40

service a lot of the disabled community

11:44

what are some of the top issues that

11:47

volunteers would need to know about

11:49

servicing that community as far as

11:51

conflicts issues problems 

11:58

I think that the way you and we all

12:01

address

12:02

a client's uh disability is important

12:06

um and that we are uh sensitive to

12:10

what their disability is but also um

12:13

offer help and understand if

12:15

it if they don't want it um

12:18

I think too also to just be careful with

12:21

the words that you use to refer to

12:24

a person with a disable with a

12:26

disability as opposed to calling them

12:27

maybe like a

12:29

A disabled person or speaking about

12:31

someone who does not have a disability

12:33

and calling them normal

12:34

you have to be very careful with your

12:36

words when you're dealing with someone

12:37

with a disability

12:38

and understand that you are not working

12:41

specifically with a disability, you are

12:43

working with a person

12:44

um who just so happens to have this

12:47

particular disability it may be

12:49

something that they want to address and

12:50

it may not be

12:52

and we have to be understanding and

12:55

respectful of their

12:56

decision and how they want to handle

12:58

their case moving forward and whether or

12:59

not that

13:00

that disability plays into our case yeah

13:06

I think that's a great point and I also

13:08

find it so interesting that

13:10

a lot of my clients who are faced with

13:12

some kind of mental illness

13:14

will be upfront with the fact that

13:16

saying I have

13:17

this mental illness um so if my emotions

13:21

are like this then this might be why

13:24

and I think that's wonderful and then

13:26

you can kind of

13:27

you know operate on a different level

13:29

based on what they need from you

13:32

and then especially if it's a physical

13:34

disability

13:35

exactly like Jessica said they might

13:38

want help they might not want help but

13:39

being able to provide them with

13:41

resources for

13:43

um just different opportunities or maybe

13:46

different

13:48

resources they might need down the line

13:50

I know I refer a ton of people to

13:52

disability rights texas

13:54

where I might not have that specialized

13:57

knowledge for whatever problem they

13:58

might have but

13:59

they definitely will so providing them

14:01

with resources

14:03

um if down the line they do need further

14:05

assistance

14:09

I’m sorry Stuart sorry I should have

14:10

raised my hand go-ahead

14:12

I have had a uh a client in the past

14:16

who had a speech impediment um and

14:19

she we prepared for that um in the event

14:22

that we

14:23

needed to have a hearing she wanted to

14:25

make sure that we took breaks

14:27

she wanted to make sure that I spoke

14:30

more

14:30

you know slowly in court um and then

14:33

gave her more time to answer the

14:34

questions as well

14:36

and so we just prepare for that and i

14:38

you know

14:39

let her know that the court is fine with

14:41

us taking breaks as long as we ask

14:43

um they won't have a problem with it um

14:45

just you know to make sure that she knew

14:47

that the courts and the judges are

14:49

understanding

14:50

uh if you ask I’ve never been in a

14:53

position or seen a judge

14:55

you know deny a request like that as

14:57

long as

14:58

they're aware of what the

15:00

situation is so

15:01

I think it just takes some planning to

15:05

make sure you know that everyone's

15:06

comfortable and make sure that

15:08

any accommodations that are necessary

15:09

are actually you know available

15:16

so I was going to share my a few

15:19

experiences at

15:22

helping folks with disabilities there's

15:26

a lot of individuals who

15:29

um are uh I’m not sure what the

15:32

terminology is here but

15:33

uh they can't hear right they've lost

15:35

their ability to hear so they use sign

15:36

language

15:37

completely and we have this great

15:40

access to this great resource where they

15:43

do a video call

15:44

and we'd go through an interpreter those

15:46

individuals

15:47

are the ones that are the ones that need

15:50

the most help

15:51

in these administrative hearings so

15:52

normally they're the ones because of the

15:54

communications issues

15:56

uh have the hardest time communicating

16:00

to the social

16:00

community social security administration

16:02

or to the texas workforce commission

16:04

about their benefits or to

16:06

snap or tanf about their benefits and

16:09

uh

16:10

it's usually not even a legal issue an

16:12

attorney like myself or one of one of

16:14

the other ones on the public benefits

16:15

team can just call up and say hey here's

16:17

what's going on

16:18

there's a communication issue and boom i

16:21

mean you've just helped someone get

16:22

their

16:23

their benefits uh back up from what it

16:25

was reduced or get their back pay

16:27

um an attorney in these shoes

16:30

um helping uh individuals in those

16:32

circumstances can really just

16:33

make a few phone calls or send a few

16:35

letters and like really change someone's

16:36

life

16:37

um and so I think that's really

16:39

important but it does take some patience

16:41

you're gonna have to um understand how

16:44

to communicate

16:45

with with folks with those types of

16:47

disabilities and those language lines

16:49

are

16:49

crucial you know and there's also

16:53

interesting um

16:54

when we do go back to court you know we

16:56

have you know

16:57

live hearings again and we I mean I’ve

17:00

had a few of them with clients you know

17:02

who need uh

17:04

sign language you know interpretation

17:06

for them one thing that I didn't think

17:07

about and realized that

17:08

from my first case or during my first

17:10

case we're in the hallway talking about

17:12

you know to the client trying to talk

17:14

about the matter and somebody's signing

17:15

for them right

17:16

the opponent can be in the other way

17:18

down the hallway and completely

17:20

understanding the sign language you know

17:21

what's going on

17:22

you've actually validated

17:23

confidentiality there so my

17:25

I realized that you know I can take my

17:27

client and everybody over to another

17:28

spot or completely you know so we can

17:30

communicate about that

17:31

small things like that I think sometimes

17:32

matter when you learn a bit more about

17:34

what your clients having to deal with

17:36

and how to represent them better

17:40

and one of the issues I wanted to kind

17:41

of circle back and talk touch based on

17:44

is uh you mentioned sometimes

17:47

they don't necessarily want the

17:49

resources you're offering them

17:51

um I had a case uh due to the client's

17:55

mental issues it made her hard for her to

17:57

work she had a hard time leaving the

17:58

house

18:00

unfortunately, she was behind on property

18:02

taxes and facing a foreclosure suit

18:05

and um those uh that listened to the

18:08

Title clearing

18:09

podcast and foreclosure and tax podcast

18:12

know

18:12

that you can qualify for a disability

18:15

deferral which kind of just makes all

18:16

those taxes go away

18:19

and I think she would have qualified for

18:21

SSDI

18:22

but she didn't want it to her she was

18:25

not disabled she was fine

18:26

that's not something she wanted even

18:28

though that probably could have saved

18:30

her house

18:31

that was the client's decision and I had

18:33

to respect that so we just had to

18:35

find a new way to keep her in her

18:38

home

18:38

and sometimes you just have to respect

18:41

that decision

18:42

even though it's hard because you know

18:44

how much it could help them

18:45

but yeah at the end of the day it is

18:48

their choice

18:48

not yours

18:53

and um I think at the top of the episode

18:56

I did mention

18:57

we are a disaster project we do work

19:00

with disaster

19:01

survivors what are some

19:04

things that you have learned in your own

19:05

practices that could help volunteer

19:07

attorneys with working with trauma

19:08

survivors

19:15

I think probably the biggest thing that

19:18

I’ve learned

19:19

from being in the disaster relief unit

19:22

is

19:23

realizing the trauma that people

19:25

experience right after the disaster

19:27

and the fact that it just doesn't

19:31

end after that disaster once the next

19:34

disaster occurs

19:35

these people have a lot of kinds of PTSD

19:38

that you have to

19:39

work with and just being so empathetic

19:43

to the facts that these situations don't

19:47

just end

19:48

Two, three, four weeks after these

19:51

disasters happen

19:52

it's months and months for people to

19:54

repair their homes and their lives

19:57

and unfortunately we in

20:00

at lone star legal aid like to say that

20:05

we can't make people whole all the time

20:08

we can kind of get them what they

20:10

deserve but it doesn't mean that they're

20:12

going to be whole again and really

20:14

managing people's expectations

20:16

I think that's been really hard

20:18

especially with dealing with

20:20

disaster clients

20:27 

I think a lot of the

20:31

trauma that I deal with on a daily basis

20:34

um

20:34

also involves some form of domestic

20:38

violence and

20:39

sexual assault in addition to the things

20:41

that people

20:42

are experiencing on top of that you know

20:44

so

20:45

maybe being um stuck in a home with

20:48

their

20:49

abuser due to covid or um

20:52

having to deal with uh our most

20:55

recent winter storm um in the home with

20:58

an abuser or without the resources

20:59

because

21:00

because of that situation and so I think

21:02

what I have learned

21:04

is not to uh push people

21:07

into facts and to push people into

21:10

things quickly

21:11

um I try to let them

21:15

tell the story to me and let it unfold

21:17

as opposed to

21:18

asking them you know or rushing them

21:20

or saying hey get straight to the point

21:22

you know a lot of times we want to know

21:24

what it is that you came in for

21:26

and how we can fix it and talk to you

21:28

about the process and get it done but

21:30

sometimes you do

21:31

have to ask the same questions you know

21:33

again in a different way to get the

21:35

the answer that you're looking for um

21:38

you have to kind of understand

21:40

what we call trauma brain and so their

21:43

memory is

21:44

going to function differently um

21:47

there'll be some things that people who

21:49

have been through trauma

21:51

will remember you know on a kind of a

21:53

sporadic basis or maybe they don't

21:55

remember

21:55

any details because their defense

21:57

mechanism has pushed those out

21:59

um and so you can't force it

22:02

um and sometimes those intakes and

22:05

those interviews and

22:06

and that kind of thing take a little

22:08

longer um I try not to re-traumatize

22:11

people so

22:12

um my big thing is a timeline I ask

22:16

my people to create a timeline with me

22:20

and then as things uh as their memory

22:22

you know things start to jog their

22:23

memory

22:24

then I add to that timeline as

22:26

opposed to going back

22:27

and saying well what happened you know a

22:30

year before and having them trying to

22:33

uh also deal with the stress of trying

22:36

to remember things that maybe they've

22:38

forgotten

22:39

and that helps them get through the hearing

22:41

but it also helps them kind of

22:43

as you know as the case unfolds and as

22:45

litigation goes on

22:47

helps them to remember things and it

22:48

just kind of kills the stress

22:51

um so I’ve noticed that that

22:55

doing that has helped me out a lot and

22:56

it also helps them out a lot because it

22:58

gives them

22:59

some homework um and it's not something

23:02

that has to be done

23:03

every day is something if you remember

23:06

it jot it down

23:07

we'll add it to our timeline letter

23:09

later you know if you remember it email

23:11

it to me

23:11

I’ll add it to your timeline we move on

23:13

from there so it's not something we have

23:15

to discuss

23:16

every day all day long but it is you

23:18

know putting kind of the story together

23:21

in a way that is easier for them to you

23:24

know

23:24

to handle especially when dealing with

23:27

trauma because just like Meghan said

23:30

nothing ever happened you know there's

23:31

never

23:32

one incident one thing um that's why

23:35

they say you know when it rains it pours

23:37

um everybody's dealing with you know

23:40

kind of the

23:41

effect of multiple things at once and so

23:44

try not to

23:45

overwhelm people um especially in our

23:48

cases where they're dealing with

23:49

multiple

23:49

organizations and so they're getting

23:52

help from different resources they're

23:53

talking to different attorneys about

23:55

different things they're talking to

23:56

you know people who are who are

23:58

providing them with services

24:00

maybe cps maybe you know all these

24:02

different organizations and entities and

24:04

that's stressful

24:05

sometimes you know people can't remember

24:07

who it is that they talk to last or

24:08

who's helping them with the particular

24:10

thing

24:10

so you have to be really patient um and

24:12

you have to understand that no one's

24:14

dealing with just one

24:15

issue at one time um you have to be you

24:18

know

24:18

I think we have to be able to see

24:22

that

24:22

and to work with it so

24:25

I got a question for both of you um

24:28

it's something that I struggle with I

24:30

don't do a lot of

24:32

DV intakes um or have a lot of DV

24:34

clients like you all do

24:36

um or uh people who've had trauma from

24:40

disaster stuff we don't have we don't

24:41

get as much disaster stuff in

24:43

fort worth as you all do in south texas

24:45

um

24:46

and so uh I want to hit on a topic

24:50

that Belinda brought up

24:51

and that's managing their expectations

24:55

but trying to do it in a way that

24:56

doesn't really re-tramatize them

24:58

or that doesn't offend their

25:00

sensibilities I would love to get

25:02

some and this is like me genuinely

25:03

asking advice now like what is

25:06

how do you walk that line

25:08

because

25:09

I consistently struggle with that

25:12

whenever I’m having to do uh intakes

25:14

with

25:15

um or retaining clients that are are

25:18

victims of DV

25:19

and it's a landlord-tenant issue

25:20

like like what I do and the abusers are

25:22

still in the house and I’m trying to

25:24

figure out

25:24

what the best options are but I also

25:26

want to try to manage their expectations

25:28

because as anyone

25:29

who knows landlord-tenant laws in this

25:31

state the laws are not going to be

25:32

friendly to the tenant

25:33

um and so uh can you kind of

25:36

opine on on on how to best walk the line

25:39

of of

25:41

managing their expectations but also

25:44

not re-traumatizing them and being

25:46

honest with them

25:49

um yeah so before

25:53

well in order to kind of not

25:56

re-traumatize them when I’m first

25:58

speaking with them I’m completely honest

26:01

on what the remedies can be you know

26:04

exactly what you said

26:05

texas is very landlord-friendly so

26:08

there's only so much I can do to change

26:10

what the legislator

26:12

legislature excuse me has already ruled

26:15

and so with that initial phone call as

26:17

I’m listening to their facts and what

26:19

legal remedies are available

26:21

that's all I can do is be very honest

26:23

with how what I can do to accomplish

26:25

their goals

26:26

but also when I have that first

26:30

conversation I always ask what are your

26:32

goals

26:33

what is it that you're wanting so that i

26:35

don't push anything further on you

26:38

of course, there's going to be things

26:39

that I hear that I’m like well that's a

26:41

legal issue that we could probably solve

26:42

as well

26:43

but I’m not going to push any more um

26:47

any more stress on them if they've come

26:49

for a legal issue I’m going to listen to

26:50

them

26:51

and then like I said I’m just going to

26:53

be completely honest with what I can do

26:55

and what help I can provide

26:56

because I I’m not going to sit there and

26:59

say I can solve all your problems and at

27:01

the end they're going to be rainbows and

27:03

cupcakes it's going to be all beautiful

27:05

it's just not reality and so

27:07

I wish I could say that to them but it's

27:10

just not

27:11

the truth of the matter always

27:16

so this makes me think about residency

27:19

restrictions

27:20

in my line because I do you know a lot

27:22

of family law

27:23

and so the first thing that comes to

27:25

mind is residency restrictions and I try

27:27

to

27:27

tell people um that I don't like them

27:31

either

27:31

let me just you know be honest with you

27:33

I don't like it either

27:35

um but the law in Texas is that if you

27:38

have a

27:38

child and the opposing party is here

27:40

they are allowed to foster a

27:42

relationship with that child

27:44

and so that means no you cannot move you

27:46

know halfway across the united states

27:49

or to another country, I don't like it

27:51

either and I try to make sure

27:53

that I let them know that but um I try

27:56

to be very

27:57

direct about um how those types of

28:01

things are implemented

28:02

and what the law is and then when

28:04

there's something that I know that i

28:06

can't do

28:07

for example I’m I am fairly certain i

28:09

know that I can't get the judge to lift

28:11

that restriction

28:12

and allow you to move California I’m

28:15

fairly

28:16

certain I can't but maybe I can put some

28:18

provisions

28:19

in place or some kind of safeguard so

28:22

that

28:23

when you are doing exchanges you're not

28:25

required to

28:26

have contact with this abuser or maybe I

28:29

can

28:30

you know put something in place that

28:31

makes you feel more comfortable with

28:33

being here

28:34

maybe I can get a broader residency

28:35

restriction so you guys don't have to be

28:37

so close together

28:39

um and you know maybe I can get some

28:42

some

28:43

uh travel provisions put into this order

28:45

that will allow you to move back and

28:46

forth like you need to

28:48

as long as you are you know as long as

28:50

you and the child reside here in texas

28:53

so I just try to be honest

28:57

about how I feel about I know what your

28:59

expectations are I need you to know what

29:01

the court

29:02

is able to do and what I’m able to ask

29:04

for and I mean to tell you the truth i

29:06

don't like it either

29:07

but it is what the law says and so maybe

29:10

we can put some things in place

29:12

to kind of help you feel more

29:13

comfortable with what the law is and

29:15

make it also work better in your favor

29:21

uh one thing I wanted to point out real

29:23

quick for those of us who don't do oh

29:25

those people who don't do family walks i=I

29:26

do it DV by the way is domestic

29:28

violence in case folks didn't know

29:29

what that term meant but that got me

29:31

thinking also you know when i

29:33

started doing these cases and had battered

29:35

spouse syndrome not to explain to

29:36

the court seemed like to explain why

29:38

it was hard to get testimony from the

29:40

victim at times

29:41

I actually just went ahead and went to

29:43

the DSM uh diagnostic into

29:45

a statistical model the uh the the

29:47

manual used you know for mental

29:49

disorders uh description

29:50

everybody can be diagnosed here on this

29:52

it's not like you have to have a mental

29:53

disorder like everybody can

29:55

hear a category for it for that and

29:58

what I did I took the um the trauma

30:01

issue the uh

30:02

somebody mentioned in here the PTSD

30:04

post-traumatic stress

30:06

is it for post tramatic stress syndrome or

30:08

something I think

30:09

and uh I explained it uh through that

30:13

way to the court and I find it unhelpful

30:14

to use that also for other cases and

30:16

other scenarios to explain when

30:17

somebody's been through a trauma

30:19

so I thought maybe it's a suggestion I’m

30:21

sure there might be even literature out

30:22

there you look for it

30:23

uh CLe articles about applying the DSM

30:26

model to the

30:27

explanation to your client condition

30:28

where they can remember certain things

30:30

or certain issues

30:31

uh it's the small thing that I think

30:32

helps because the DSM-4 DSM-5 now

30:35

is widely accepted in courts they hear

30:37

that in a code now it's scientific

30:38

it's a little different right it's not

30:40

just the opinion of the

30:41

litigator I wanted to just kind of

30:43

mention that little tool there as the

30:44

oldest person in this group here

30:46

so with the experience that I bring in

30:48

yeah absolutely and I’ve had to use it

30:50

to explain it's like my client may be

30:52

very

30:52

quiet her abuser's like literally five

30:55

feet away from her

30:56

she might not be the most talkative she

30:58

may hesitate to answer questions because

31:01

whoever it is is staring right out of

31:03

the entire hearing so

31:05

it's very stressful and obviously

31:07

they're scared of this person

31:09

so yeah it just it's not that they're

31:12

being

31:12

evasive or they're not really in danger

31:16

it's just

31:17

you have this stressor right in the room

31:19

with them

31:20

as far as maintaining ex uh expectations

31:24

not just family law that's pretty much

31:26

everything we do

31:27

um I think right now the most relevant

31:30

is the FEMA assistance people are

31:31

applying for

31:32

thanks to Uri people sometimes don't

31:36

quite understand what FEMA does for them

31:38

and what that doesn't do for them and a

31:39

lot of that frustration comes from

31:42

well I thought that you were there to

31:45

completely repair

31:46

my house and it's like no FEMA doesn't

31:49

make you

31:50

whole it just kind of makes it where you

31:52

can stay in the house again

31:56

a perfect example we have a three

31:58

bedroom home

31:59

it's just me and my husband um have a

32:01

stepson that comes back and forth

32:04

so FEMA decided we only needed one

32:07

bedroom repaired

32:09

we only used one bedroom to make our

32:10

home habitable we only need that one

32:12

bedroom the other two are

32:13

guest rooms or if

32:16

our neighbor his garage was flooded all

32:18

his tools were in there

32:20

he was a carpenter by trade well you're

32:21

retired you didn't actually need all

32:23

that

32:23

so no that doesn't get that doesn't get

32:26

repaired doesn't you're not going to get

32:27

any money for that

32:28

so a lot of time it's managing the

32:30

expectations of

32:32

what those resources will actually do

32:34

for them and what they actually can

32:35

provide and can't provide

32:37

so that was my two cents just because

32:39

I’m working on this for the last week

32:42

um

32:46

I know I think I heard someone say um

32:51

how to speak and how to phrase your

32:53

questions

32:55

to clients uh could you go in more

32:58

into that because I know I’ve had the

32:59

same issue where I’ve had to ask the

33:01

question a couple of different

33:02

ways to make sure they were

33:04

understanding the question

33:06

and I know sometimes I’ve had to go into

33:08

why

33:09

that question is so important so I kind

33:11

of get the answer I need so

33:12

could you go into more into that

33:20

well I um I think that

33:23

when when I am asking questions I try

33:25

not to

33:26

uh use any legalese or

33:29

um our big legal words um

33:32

if I do I have a kind of a breakdown or

33:36

a key

33:37

for what you know what this regular word

33:40

how it you know how it works with this

33:43

actual legal word so I try to

33:45

tell people and I try to make it

33:46

interesting so that they understand so

33:48

like in my family law world

33:49

I will say well we're asking for

33:52

conservatorship which is texas fancy

33:54

language for custody because everything

33:55

is always bigger in Texas and they

33:57

needed a long word

33:59

um and so so I try to say it that way

34:02

and then any kind of form questions that

34:05

are are

34:06

shorter and uh simpler to answer not

34:08

because I don't think that they'll

34:09

understand but just because they got to

34:11

put the thoughts together to remember

34:12

things

34:13

um and go back and talk about things

34:15

that may be traumatizing or

34:17

they may be repressed so I think it

34:21

helps

34:21

my notes one but it also helps my

34:25

client with uh with just getting through

34:29

the legal process

34:30

if I keep from using words that are

34:35

you know that that are legal words or

34:38

words that they may not understand or if

34:39

I

34:40

at least provide a kind of key or go by

34:43

us

34:43

what it is that I’m saying I do though

34:46

go back

34:46

and teach the buzzwords these are the

34:49

buzzwords that we need to use in court

34:51

so

34:51

remember you know these particular words

34:54

when we're talking about maybe best

34:55

interest or when we're talking about

34:56

conservatorship

34:57

we do need to use buzzwords but um we

35:00

need to talk in plain language

35:03

um I try to and so I try to make sure

35:06

that when I’m asking questions

35:08

that I’m asking them in plain language

35:10

that I’m asking short

35:11

questions as opposed to you know complex

35:13

long questions with multiple answers

35:15

um and if I need to circle back to

35:18

something I let them know that I’m

35:20

circling back

35:21

I’ll say okay I want to go back to you

35:23

know what you said about XYZ

35:25

so that I have a better understanding

35:28

and then that will usually get

35:30

to the place that I need to be with with

35:33

the client and that particular issue

35:34

that we're addressing

35:39

yeah and just bouncing off of Jessica

35:41

especially

35:42

when after disaster strikes and you're

35:45

trying to qualify people for let's say

35:47

FEMA

35:48

and one of the biggest hurdles is

35:50

ownership issues and so that kind of

35:51

leads to probate issues and

35:53

when you're trying to tell someone um

35:56

about a muniment of title

35:58

or something they're like what what what

36:00

is that word

36:01

and I’m like well let me tell you and so

36:04

I think though especially for probate

36:06

stuff if you kind of walk them

36:08

through did so and so die with a will

36:10

without a will

36:12

rather than say intestate you know

36:15

exactly what Jessica said if you kind of

36:17

explain these words to them it doesn't

36:19

mean that they can't understand it it's

36:20

just how long

36:21

in law school did it take us to

36:23

understand these terms

36:24

it's the same thing with teaching

36:26

someone something

36:28

very new that they've never had to work

36:31

with before

36:33

so it's walking someone through the

36:35

process what you need from them

36:37

like could you supply two witnesses

36:39

these are what qualify

36:41

as a witness so just walking people

36:44

very much through each step, I think is

36:46

so important when um

36:48

speaking with someone especially

36:52

when they need um some kind of legal

36:54

specific document

36:57

I think absolutely plain language is

36:59

very important but sometimes even when

37:01

using plain language

37:02

if a term has a specific legal meaning

37:05

you need to make sure that's coming

37:07

across I going back to the FEMA

37:09

example yes

37:10

most times if you ask a person do you

37:12

own your home they're going to say yes

37:14

I live there for 20 years of course I

37:15

own it but then when you do a title

37:17

search it's like no it's still titled and

37:19

grandma's name who passed 30 years ago

37:22

and no title transfer has ever happened

37:25

so you kind of have to be a little bit

37:28

more specific about

37:29

what ownership means in a legal term or

37:31

for FEMA’s

37:33

qualifications um the same thing in probate

37:36

I’ve had that issue too

37:38

Um, clients, unmarried brother passed

37:42

and I asked oh well is there any other

37:43

siblings that can inherit

37:46

inherit very common word most, people

37:48

understand what inherit means and she

37:49

was like oh no

37:51

further along down the conversation

37:53

she's like oh yeah I just wish my other

37:55

brother sisters were still alive to see

37:56

that I’m like wait whoa

37:58

wait what and for those of you who may

38:01

not do probate it's

38:04

even if those siblings are deceased they

38:05

may have had children

38:07

texas does per stirpes which means

38:09

those nieces and nephews are now

38:12

in line of secession so it's like

38:15

but she answered the question that i

38:16

asked in her mind

38:18

those siblings are passed they can't

38:19

inherit anything dead people can't

38:22

inherit anything so she

38:23

she technically answered the question

38:25

but I got the wrong answer because i

38:26

didn't explain what i

38:28

how the system worked so sometimes you

38:31

just got to be

38:32

very careful you are actually getting

38:34

the answer that you need because you can

38:36

make a huge mistake if you don't

38:39

um and just to add on what you're saying

38:41

Belinda

38:42

and this is kind of different but I had

38:45

a client who I’m doing a divorce for

38:47

and something so simple as um I need

38:51

your

38:51

name and respondent's name for the

38:53

the petition we get through the whole thing

38:55

and attorney ad litem has to be

38:58

put on the case and come out comes

39:01

um to be that the name it's not her full

39:03

name that she gave me

39:05

it's just the name that she's been going

39:06

for so even me asking what's your name

39:08

you have to be so specifically please

39:10

tell me your full name because I’m gonna

39:11

need these for the petitions

39:13

I just would have never thought of that

39:15

until now that I’ve come across that

39:17

kind of scenario

39:21

very true I’ve had that same problem

39:22

they go by a nickname or a middle name

39:25

and then I look at their driver's

39:26

license for something like wait you

39:28

told me your name was Michelle this says

39:32

Karen

39:35

well there's a reason they don't be

39:36

known as Karen they just know just

39:38

tell you right now

39:40

just kidding

39:44

um let's see I think another I know

39:46

issue that often comes up

39:48

is if you're in private practice or

39:52

a transactional attorney for a big firm

39:55

getting a hold of your client generally

39:56

isn't a problem they have email

39:59

they have facebook they have twitter

40:02

um good cell phone access good internet

40:05

access

40:06

um sometimes our clients

40:09

don't so that kind of comes to some

40:11

communication

40:12

issues how would you what are the major

40:15

communication issues how do you address

40:17

that and how do you work around those

40:18

issues

40:22

one major communication issue is

40:25

that with our client base they

40:28

maybe moving around from place to place

40:30

relatively quickly

40:32

um and so uh I think it's important to

40:35

get as many ways to communicate with

40:37

them

40:38

as possible if that's a phone number if

40:41

that's an

40:41

email address if that is a

40:44

caseworker um if it is you know your

40:48

best friend or your sister who

40:50

however, it is that I can relay a message

40:53

um

40:53

and you have to be willing to understand

40:57

it

40:57

like you can't just drop your client and

40:59

say we can't communicate because you

41:00

haven't heard from them in a week

41:02

if they're moving around um you gotta

41:04

understand that they're in survival mode

41:06

they're they are doing what they have to

41:08

do to you know to maintain their

41:10

livelihoods so

41:11

um leave a message when you're calling

41:15

um I try to if I’m calling my client or

41:18

my applicant directly put as much

41:20

information in the message as possible

41:22

so that when they call me back if it's

41:24

after hours

41:25

or if it's at a time that I’m not

41:27

available then they can

41:29

answer my question in the message

41:31

because they know why I called as

41:32

opposed to just saying

41:34

you know give me a call back um I

41:37

use email a lot um I have you know some

41:40

clients who are only available

41:42

after five o'clock um and if I need to

41:46

schedule appointments after hours and

41:48

I a lot for that time

41:49

because I know that they want to be able

41:52

to speak to someone in person and email

41:54

isn't always going to do it

41:55

or we need to be able to prepare for

41:57

things and we can't do that

41:58

you know via email so you know I a lot

42:01

for

42:02

the extra time if necessary and I tell

42:04

them you know don't feel bad

42:06

don't you know quit your job don't stop

42:08

doing what you're doing

42:09

I’ll find a way to make sure that we

42:11

have contact with each other

42:13

um but we'll have people sometimes that

42:15

are in

42:16

shelter for example and that will mean

42:19

that they have to

42:20

move around quite frequently but as long

42:23

as they have a way to get in touch with

42:25

you and provide any updates to telephone

42:27

numbers addresses

42:29

and always get an alternate email

42:30

address and an alternate

42:32

telephone number um and Ijust tell my

42:35

uh

42:35

clients I need to be able to find you um

42:38

whatever that means so

42:40

whatever information you want to give me

42:42

I need to be able to find you I’ll call

42:44

I’ll call whoever you need me to I’ll

42:45

send you know the email to

42:47

whoever you need me to just make sure

42:49

that I’ve got a way to get in touch with

42:50

you

42:55

yeah one of the biggest problems

42:59

that I’ve seen is just my clients they

43:01

run out of minutes on their cell phone

43:03

and then you just can't get a

43:06

hold of them anymore and

43:08

sometimes they'll remember your number

43:11

more likely than not

43:12

and it's just kind of you know I’m not

43:15

exactly what Jessica said we're not

43:16

going to close your case

43:17

um but there does come a point where you

43:20

know you haven't

43:21

heard or spoken to them for six months

43:23

but pre-covid I’d have no problem

43:26

just going down to their house knocking

43:27

on their door saying

43:29

hey haven't heard from you in a while or

43:31

sending them a letter

43:32

that really isn't realistic these days

43:35

which is so sad

43:36

but you know it's just trying to find

43:39

other means of communication

43:42

you know I will go online and try to

43:44

find their private Facebook account send

43:45

them a message

43:46

I’m not beneath it I’ll say hey i

43:48

haven't heard from you for a while

43:50

but yeah sometimes it's just so

43:52

difficult especially when you can't get

43:54

a hold of them and you have the deadline

43:56

approaching or something's happening so

43:58

it's just kind of pivoting to

44:01

find them that's one thing I always let

44:04

them know it's like I’ll Facebook chat

44:06

you I’ll dm you it's fine and I just

44:08

need to talk to you it doesn't have to

44:10

be a home or cell phone just

44:13

I just need to talk to you that's it um

44:16

I know one of the things I also have to

44:17

keep in the back of my mind

44:19

um well pre-covid at least was travel

44:22

restrictions

44:24

if they have a car gas money is

44:26

expensive if they don't have a car

44:27

they're relying on

44:28

the lovely Houston public transportation

44:31

system

44:33

we won't get on that topic

44:37

so when you make a hearing you have to

44:40

make sure they're ready to go

44:41

I mean if you're if you have a pretty 50

44:44

50 chance that it's probably going to be

44:45

reset

44:47

maybe you should call the clerk to talk

44:48

with the judge see if you can get a feel

44:50

of

44:51

if people have been served before you

44:52

drag them all the way down to the

44:53

courthouse

44:55

The same thing as Jessica was saying about

44:56

scheduling important

44:58

appointments our office is downtown

45:01

Houston sometimes

45:02

they're in webster and still in our

45:05

service area so that's a

45:06

long for those who are not familiar

45:08

that's over an hour drive

45:10

it's not convenient for them to always

45:11

to come to the office to sign

45:13

everything so if you do need in-person

45:16

signatures make sure you have all your

45:17

documents together in one go so they

45:19

don't have to keep making multiple trips

45:21

that's the one good thing silver lining

45:23

about the covid pandemic

45:25

it's forced the courts to go more online

45:27

like we have

45:28

digital notaries now courts are now very

45:31

open to DocuSign on documents

45:33

we're doing zoom hearings which is great

45:36

because

45:36

like I said getting down to the

45:38

courthouse paying for that parking

45:40

is a challenge and also they have to

45:42

take off work which means they're losing

45:44

usually a day's pay to sit and wait for

45:46

docket call

45:48

so I’m seeing I know when I still

45:50

practice and

45:52

from other attorneys that they're seeing

45:53

a lot fewer defaults because they can

45:55

take a 15-minute break

45:56

and do their little hearing and then go

45:59

back to work

46:00

so but when we go back to normal

46:03

just remember your clients may not be

46:05

able to just get to you

46:07

in office at a drop of a hat be

46:10

respectful of their time

46:11

and they should be respectful of yours

46:12

too

46:15

and just a piggyback off of what you

46:18

said Belinda you uh brought up

46:20

zoom and you know the fact that we're

46:21

doing more things online now we have

46:24

a lot of clients who don't have access

46:26

to the technology that they need for

46:27

hearings

46:28

um and so uh I think we just have to you

46:32

know understand that

46:33

we may have to pull some strings and

46:35

make some things happen

46:36

in order to make sure that they're able

46:38

to feel attend

46:40

hearings we have had people come to our

46:43

office and sit in separate rooms

46:45

because we had additional computers that

46:47

were there

46:49

we have Ubered people to our office in

46:52

order to be able to attend their

46:53

hearings on zoom

46:54

I’ve had one in my car on an iPad

46:58

uh with the person in the car with me so

47:01

you do

47:01

you do have to you know maneuver some

47:05

things

47:06

because although the technology for us

47:09

is great and allows us to do more

47:11

um it does put some of our clients in a

47:13

position where they don't have access to

47:15

that

47:15

and that of course makes them nervous

47:16

and makes them less comfortable with

47:18

with

47:19

the process

47:24

yeah absolutely um that's a good point

47:27

that digital

47:28

divide between people it is a problem

47:32

I just wanted to point out that you use

47:34

it for those rural attorneys that don't

47:35

live in the big cities you use a fancy

47:37

term public transportation

47:39

you don't even have that down here i

47:41

mean you've got a greyhound bus coming

47:42

up and down

47:43

one street you'll be lucky about that so

47:44

uber I didn't think about that actually

47:46

that's a very good idea

47:47

uh for our clients I also wanted to

47:49

mention something that I think we do in

47:51

our program and I think called the legal

47:52

aid programs that the pro bono attorneys

47:53

want to know

47:54

once we place a case with a client by

47:56

that point we've actually put the client

47:58

in contact with several different

47:59

agencies to assist them and not just a

48:01

legal problem but other matters maybe

48:02

even a social worker as

48:04

a case in trla and y'all can correct me

48:06

Meghan or Jessica if I’m wrong

48:07

but I think it's important for the pro

48:09

bono attorney to know that there's a

48:10

support system we've

48:11

given to our client before they go to

48:13

them they're not alone and if

48:14

not reach back to us you know we ever

48:16

refer the case to you so we can maybe

48:18

get them in contact with a few of those

48:19

agencies

48:20

that we would know about absolutely like

48:23

I think it was Jessica who said they're

48:25

never really dealing with one issue

48:27

even one legal issue so if you're like

48:30

yes I need to get their FEMA assistance

48:32

but they just told me they have no

48:34

food and their kids are hungry reach out

48:35

to us we could probably find

48:38

vouchers replacement staff charities

48:41

we can help them with that problem so

48:43

you can move forward on the case

48:49

wow time really flew I think we're in

48:52

our last

48:54

10 minutes it always seems to go by so

48:56

fast ourselves

48:58

it seems enough started interrupting but

49:00

then I should have raised my hand there

49:01

but I haven't heard a story

49:02

from Jessica yet I want to hear one of

49:03

those more interesting stories that

49:05

she's had because Meghan shared the

49:06

morgue

49:07

and mortgage with us which I’m still

49:08

can't I’m gonna forget that

49:14

I think one um so

49:17

I have uh been with legal aid now for

49:21

five years and so I think that my

49:24

stories feel like normal everyday life

49:26

to me now

49:27

mm-hmm um they’ve all got

49:30

their own uh I mean I feel like we could

49:33

write a book

49:34

um I think one of my

49:38

best kind of stories

49:41

is I have a client maybe about

49:45

now two years ago when I was in fort

49:48

worth

49:48

and we initially um

49:52

had not accepted the case because

49:56

she did not provide very much

49:58

information

49:59

um and so there wasn't a whole lot to go

50:03

off of

50:03

in her initial intake but we went back

50:06

and did it again and talked to her again

50:09

and it's just her story was

50:12

something you would see on the news um

50:15

she had so

50:18

her husband had absconded with the

50:21

children

50:22

left the country came to the united

50:24

states under the gods that she was dead

50:27

um and so it just and then she ended up

50:30

having to

50:31

find out you know figure out where her

50:33

children were figure out how to get into

50:35

the united states to get her children

50:37

he found out that he was here chased her

50:39

around with a gun

50:41

um and so I ended up filing

50:45

a protective order in a divorce for her

50:48

and

50:48

chronically pretty much doing whatever

50:51

in my power I could do to get him

50:52

arrested

50:53

um because he had warrants for the

50:56

things that he had done

50:57

he had you know lied about you know um

51:00

the reason why he was here

51:01

he had done some pretty

51:04

crazy and bad things to the children but

51:07

by the time our case was over and it may

51:09

have took about

51:10

a year but by the time our case was over

51:13

she had a protective order she had

51:14

learned how to drive

51:16

she had found and gotten a driver's

51:18

license she was getting help with

51:19

immigration she had found an apartment

51:22

she was working

51:23

um and it was a complete

51:27

like her entire just

51:30

experience was a complete 180. I saw

51:33

pictures

51:34

of the things that he had done to her

51:38

and then that kind of made me understand

51:41

why she was so timid about talking about

51:43

things but she had gotten so many good

51:46

resources

51:47

from legal aid because we not only had

51:50

uh helped her with the divorce and the

51:51

protective order

51:52

but also some housing issues that she um

51:55

was having

51:56

and she had gotten so many good

51:57

resources from the shelters

51:59

and from you know other outside

52:03

organizations

52:04

and by the time we were done

52:06

when I tell you she didn't

52:08

need me at all it was amazing so she was

52:11

talking and I mean talking like talking

52:12

your head off talking um

52:14

she had learned to drive I mean and she

52:17

was

52:18

raising at that point three boys on her

52:21

own um at the opposing party tried to give

52:24

her a

52:25

car and actually left it in the parking

52:26

lot uh

52:28

downstairs at our office and then we had

52:30

to inspect the car to find out if there

52:32

were trackers or anything on it

52:34

um it was just it was a lot he would pop

52:37

up at the office whenever he wanted to

52:39

um and he had to be alerted when he was

52:41

there um but we ended up

52:44

I mean getting through it and just to

52:45

see the change in

52:47

people from start to finish I think is

52:51

is amazing um

52:54

and when people come into all of our

52:57

services you know for all of our

52:58

services I think they're at their lowest

53:00

or close to their lowest and so it

53:03

really is

53:03

interesting to me to see how they change

53:07

so

53:07

drastically when you think that you

53:09

haven't done anything

53:11

you know you may say oh well I got a

53:12

A protective order that's you know that's

53:14

what I do every day

53:15

or I’ve you know filed this paperwork

53:17

for them that's what I do every day but

53:19

it's interesting to see how what you

53:22

have done and what you think is your

53:23

everyday life

53:24

changes there so much um

53:28

and I think that's you know amazing

53:31

when I hear stories about what

53:34

you know maybe like Stuart's unit or

53:37

you know

53:37

what people are doing with landlord

53:39

tenant and the eviction moratorium and

53:42

all that right now

53:43

like you think it's small um but to hear

53:45

somebody say

53:46

I got to stay in my house or my children

53:49

won't be homeless

53:50

or I feel like I can go outside again

53:52

because we have had people who

53:54

refuse to go outside of their homes

53:57

um but to I think hearing

54:00

them say things like that is amazing

54:04

because what you think you're doing is

54:05

maybe like small

54:06

but it really is a big change in

54:09

people's lives

54:12

and you probably know you you made those

54:14

boys lives’ better

54:17

yeah which actually is a metric I think

54:20

we use in our legal services world and

54:22

the family businesses

54:23

not just the client itself uh but that's

54:25

an amazing story

54:26

and make sure that pro bonos know that

54:28

I’m not all of your case is going to

54:29

be that complicated but

54:31

you might be and they are we got

54:32

something to give you as far as a

54:33

resource

54:34

but uh I mean a minor point like you

54:37

said but I think it matters

54:38

even in the case is minor even it’s muniment of

54:41

title like you mentioned or some other

54:42

minor things at this point the clients

54:44

for the most part haven't probably been

54:45

listened to

54:46

or heard you don't have anybody with

54:48

some kind of authority or title even

54:49

listen to them

54:50

so for our pro bonos giving you them

54:52

you're giving them your time

54:54

5 10 15 20 minutes sometimes means a lot

54:57

more you know than

54:58

when most people have given to them so

54:59

it's always a special feeling I think

55:01

that we have from our profession that we

55:03

can do for a person

55:05

and it's also you know we

55:08

have to be also careful like you know

55:09

the many different traumas you're

55:10

talking about there you know

55:12

Jessica and Meghan but like the one that

55:14

we saw

55:15

and we adapted to the last two years ago

55:17

which is just

55:18

hard to have to admit is that we applied

55:20

the disaster response model for natural

55:22

disasters

55:23

to the man-made ones and by that one i

55:25

mean uh well not necessarily this one

55:27

but the power outages

55:28

but the uh the gun uh the shooter

55:32

uh over an embossing in that incident

55:33

all the victims that happened in Walmart

55:35

we did actually a disaster resistance

55:37

recovery training on that

55:39

where instead of talking about FEMA in

55:40

the beginning you know for the life

55:42

cycle

55:42

of recovering from it we talked about

55:45

crime buttons compensation

55:46

just to help those 24 people bury their

55:48

relatives and then move on and be

55:50

careful and that

55:50

that way allow the person to go through

55:52

the drama and be able to move on to that

55:53

one legal problem and then move to the

55:55

next one

55:56

whether it be employment with because

55:58

they were at Walmart whether it be

55:59

the loss of their car because it was

56:01

impounded or something like that

56:02

uh but that's something that legal aid

56:04

is always kind of being aware of and

56:05

again

56:06

as a pro bono attorney uh when you have

56:08

this client and you see those issues

56:09

come back to us you know maybe there'll

56:11

be a way to kind of discuss those things

56:12

identify them

56:13

and move on so you don't have to be

56:15

dealing with many more things apart from

56:16

the legal problems

56:17

because we're not all social workers we

56:19

are licensed attorneys

56:21

and I think you made a very good point

56:23

Pablo we're probably not going to give

56:25

you the year-long case

56:27

um I know with FEMA Isaid during harvey

56:30

proof of homeownership was a

56:31

big issue

56:33

FEMA takes affidavit of heirships and if

56:35

you've never done one

56:36

if the person can get their witnesses

56:38

together fairly quickly

56:40

you're looking at maybe an hour or two's

56:43

work

56:44

and they can prove homeownership get the

56:46

assistance they need

56:47

stay in that home and then sometimes

56:50

what I would always do is to transfer

56:51

On death deed

56:53

that way when they wanted to pass on to

56:55

the next generation

56:56

that next-generation had clear title and

57:00

so you didn't run into the same problem

57:02

with the next disaster which I think in

57:04

texas now that we're having to deal with

57:06

winter storms where it's going to be

57:07

yearly

57:08

so just that little couple of hours

57:11

worked

57:12

helped a person stay in their home and

57:13

set up the next generation so they

57:15

wouldn't have to face the same problems

57:17

or go through the expense of probate so

57:20

a little bit sometimes a little bit of

57:22

your time makes a huge difference in

57:24

someone's life

57:28

and that's not that's all my soapbox

57:29

sorry all right no that's great so we've

57:31

got about two and a half minutes left

57:33

before we wind it down Meghan Jessica

57:34

anything else you want to add to to the

57:36

presentation

57:38

um yeah i just I loved what you said

57:41

Pablo is just sometimes people want to

57:43

be listened to

57:44

especially in our communities that have

57:46

been so marginalized

57:48

I find that if you don't interrupt them

57:51

and just let them talk they can talk for

57:53

30 minutes

57:54

and sometimes that's what they need like

57:57

I have an 88-year-old client and

57:59

sometimes she'll just call to talk and

58:02

if you just put them

58:03

in your, if you put yourself in their

58:06

shoes and not say I’m so busy

58:08

let me get them off the phone sometimes

58:10

just listen to them

58:11

they haven't had a lot of communication

58:13

with anyone for a while

58:15

they just want to talk that's okay you

58:17

know we all provide different services

58:19

and sometimes our service

58:21

is just to be empathetic to someone

58:24

else's situation and it doesn't always

58:26

involve a legal issue so I love that is

58:29

especially at someone in our jobs or if

58:31

you take a pro bono case

58:33

we are all so busy but sometimes we

58:36

forget the humanity in it and it's just

58:38

taking some time and listening to

58:40

someone

58:42

so yeah

58:46

100% like snapping here yeah

58:49

go ahead jess I was just gonna say to

58:52

just

58:53

quickly that I think that pro bono

58:56

attorneys and the volunteers have to

58:57

understand how they are

59:01

and how much we appreciate them within

59:03

our

59:04

different programs because there are

59:06

obviously um

59:07

more people in need than we have

59:09

available who can assist within our

59:10

offices

59:11

um and just have you know another

59:15

resource for people that we know need

59:17

help but maybe based on the situation we

59:19

may not be able to provide it although

59:21

we want to

59:22

it's amazing and it gives people

59:25

hope when we can say you know although

59:28

we might not be able to do it there are

59:30

people who are out there

59:31

who can and will you know point you in

59:33

that direction and send you that way

59:35

um so it gives them another bite at the

59:37

apple but it also gives them

59:39

you know gives our applicants a chance

59:41

to really get the help

59:43

they need um knowing that we are you

59:45

know sometimes our offices are at a

59:47

point where we can't do anything else

59:49

uh just based on the caseload and so we

59:51

really do appreciate

59:52

our pro bono attorneys and appreciate

59:54

the volunteers because they really are

59:56

helping us

59:57

uh you know move cases along and provide

59:59

the services to people that they need

60:04

great Jessica Meghan really great

60:07

uh topic here interesting I’m sure

60:10

people look at the title I wonder what

60:11

it's going to be about I wonder how many

60:12

things clicked and let me see what it's

60:13

all about I’m sure they found it as

60:14

interesting as we did because it's so

60:15

relevant across many fields here

60:17