Ethical Considerations for Pro Bono Disaster Assistance

TDLH Podcast welcomes Claude DuCloux, former Chair of the Board of Trustees for the Texas Center of Legal Ethics and Professionalism. He will cover topics such as the new conflict of interest rules for legal aid and pro bono attorneys, attorney-client relationship, and barratry issues.  CLE Ethics Hours Available!                                                               
Visit our website at https://texasdisasterlegalhelp.org for more information. 

Music Credit: Track: Travel With Us — Vendredi [Audio Library Release] Music provided by Audio Library Plus Watch: https://youtu.be/o-rpKzt4KSY Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/travel-us

Transcript

Ethical Concerns During a Disaster
With Claude Decloux

00:04

okay well thank you um uh Claude again

00:07

for being here and part of this uh

00:08

project and for doing this you

00:10

really appreciate it and it's just so

00:12

appropriate to come to you at this time

00:13

because we just had

00:14

uh attorneys about a referendum of

00:18

i think the first time in like 15-20

00:20

years

00:21

it was 25 yeah before since we voted on

00:25

rules

00:26

and the last attempt i remembered it

00:29

fondly because i was the chair of the

00:31

board of directors

00:32

and how that went down in flames but we

00:34

learned from that

00:35

and now you all done a great job at the

00:37

cdr and the

00:38

the commission that you're a part of and

00:41

one of the rules you know that was

00:42

approved was the new rule 6.05 they

00:45

wanted to ask you about because it

00:46

pertains to exactly the pro bonos and

00:48

that's how

00:49

to screen for conflict of interest in

00:50

certain placements and I wanted to see

00:52

if you can let us know more about the

00:54

rulings application and mechanics or pro

00:56

bono attorneys know about it

00:58

sure yeah yeah thank you for asking me

00:59

this is such a joy to do this

01:01

if you don't mind uh folks let me go

01:03

back about a minute or two

01:05

give you a little bit of the background

01:06

of doing this you know

01:08

as paolo said back in 2011 there was

01:11

a package of rules that we voted on and

01:13

back then that was under the old law

01:14

where you had to get 51%

01:16

well you can't get 51% of the lawyers to

01:19

agree that there is air in the

01:21

atmosphere

01:22

so um it was this was under the new

01:25

statute so all of this is done under

01:27

this new statute that came out of the

01:28

last

01:29

um remodeling state bar in 2017. they

01:32

said look we got to fix this so we can

01:34

normally

01:35

fix these disciplinaries and bring them

01:36

up to date so they created the

01:38

you know committee on disciplinary rules

01:40

and referenda in 2017

01:42

and I got a call on December 30th from

01:45

the supreme court's uh you know

01:47

the attorney who does the appointments

01:49

and said uh supreme court wants to know

01:51

if you want an appointment to this will

01:52

you agree to appoint for three years on

01:53

this

01:54

and i said sure i had no idea what they

01:56

was talking about maybe i thought i'd be

01:57

making pickles or something

01:59

but anyway and now i'm on my second

02:01

three year term now the whole point of

02:03

this whole committee and we're gonna get

02:04

i promise i'll get to this rule

02:06

is to normalize the process of improving

02:09

and

02:11

modernizing our disciplinary rules so

02:13

this first three years

02:14

and getting to this vote which you just

02:17

did during the month of march

02:19

was very very important to put realistic

02:22

good rules that are great for lawyers

02:25

all over the state the good rules that

02:26

would have

02:27

new tools as i call it for your attorney

02:29

tool kit

02:30

and one of them is is this item uh d

02:33

which i'll get to again in another 30

02:35

seconds but we wanted to

02:37

put this out there so that lawyers get

02:39

used to

02:41

maybe um improving six new rules every

02:44

two or three years so that this is not a

02:46

big 25-year event it's going to be a

02:48

normalization process and

02:50

again we i think we did a pretty good

02:52

job

02:53

in doing tons of i probably did

02:56

18 cles to every bar from midland bar to

02:59

texarkana

03:00

just to explain the rules so we didn't

03:02

have any organized uh

03:04

opposition to any of these rules and

03:06

they passed from the lawyers that voted

03:08

by about 90% some of them passed at 95%

03:11

percent the

03:12

uh the general rules about uh you know

03:15

advertising and there are some pro bono

03:17

things in there that we have to discuss

03:18

too

03:19

where the is only passed by like 79%

03:22

which was still a vast majority but

03:25

overall only one of five of you actually

03:28

voted so if we had the 51% rule we would

03:31

have gone down in flames but

03:32

it was a huge success and I slept better

03:35

because I thought boy if this doesn't

03:37

work

03:37

we're just they're just going to say

03:39

fine you lawyers cannot regulate

03:41

yourselves

03:42

you're too stupid and you don't care

03:44

enough to

03:45

to vote so but this worked and we got at

03:48

least 20%

03:49

and they overwhelmingly passed it well

03:51

let's turn to this was called ballot

03:53

item

03:53

D and this actually arose out of

03:55

hurricane Harvey

03:57

and a bunch of lawyers from bigger law

03:59

firms and and

04:01

just so you know my background i i've

04:03

done a ton of pro bono work i was

04:05

very grateful i got the the uh

04:08

the award the state bar highest award

04:10

way back in 2001 for pro bono and

04:12

i've been very grateful for that the

04:14

frank newton award

04:16

and um so but i've been a prosecutor for

04:18

two and a half years and i was with a

04:20

small law firm in in austin where I got

04:22

a ton of trial work in the net for the

04:23

next seven and a half years, I got board

04:25

certified both civil trials

04:27

got recruited by a huge national firm

04:29

which I hated I was only there two years

04:31

and then I started my own from 

04:33

hill ducloux carnes & de la garza

04:35

and we were together for the next 26 and

04:36

a half years until I went off and

04:39

doing this specialized sort of practice

04:42

but um so I’ve really experienced

04:45

all of this stuff trying to do pro bono

04:47

work now the big firm lawyers

04:49

are look I’d love to do pro bono but if

04:51

I go down there and give some tenant

04:54

some advice on how to avoid eviction and

04:56

it turns out the person trying to evict

04:58

is a a client of my firm

05:02

I’ll make up a name texas realty is the

05:04

is the

05:05

you know landlord and I go give this guy

05:08

advice on it

05:09

do I conflict out my firm that was the

05:11

whole fear

05:13

and not only that as many of you may

05:15

have already experienced there are

05:16

people that come in

05:17

deliberately to try to conflict you out

05:20

they'll come in there and give you a

05:22

line of bs about how they do this this

05:24

and the other thing and then when you go

05:26

to help a really meaty qualified person

05:29

they go oh you already talked to me you

05:31

can't do that

05:32

so what this rule does is a new uh rule

05:35

605 and it narrows

05:37

the range that you can call conflicts of

05:40

interest

05:41

and it says as long as you're doing

05:43

limited pro bono services

05:45

you're allowed to exempt yourself from

05:48

conflict now

05:49

what does that mean under this new rule

05:51

number one it's provided through a real

05:53

pro bono uh or assisted pro se program

05:56

I just can't call myself the Claude Decloux

05:59

pro bono project

06:01

and use this rule I got to be part of

06:04

legal aid I’ve got to be part of texas

06:06

trla something like that that that gives

06:08

me that sponsorship

06:10

and it's typically as you know I used to

06:12

go on Mondays and Wednesdays short-term

06:14

stuff now

06:14

I always ended up just taking somebody

06:17

they needed well I just here's my card

06:18

just call me and I’ll come to your wills

06:21

uh short term advice uh brief assistance

06:24

pro se documents how to use these how to

06:27

do these transactions

06:28

either in person or by phone it can be

06:30

on hotline it can be on

06:31

internet it can be now on video

06:33

conferencing I’m so

06:34

pleased um the one

06:37

one of you know perhaps good things

06:40

that this whole pandemic has done

06:41

is it let us uh adopt video conferencing

06:45

it loud

06:46

uh lpc’s psychology psychologist uh

06:49

counselors now

06:50

can legitimately do video conferencing

06:52

because

06:53

they had to do it during this pandemic

06:55

so that's we can do that and

06:57

of course when you do that so we called

06:59

it it's a real agency

07:00

you're doing it short term and it's

07:03

without any expectation of extended

07:06

representation or uh of the limited

07:08

assistance that you're giving that that

07:10

client

07:11

uh the next thing is that so that

07:14

paragraph A of this new rule 

07:15

605 exempts you the pro bono lawyer from

07:19

compliance with

07:21

the disciplinary rules of conduct about

07:24

conflict of interest concerning your

07:27

clients

07:28

your former clients your firm's clients

07:31

etc and even if you're just serving as

07:34

an intermediary

07:35

except with one very logical exception

07:39

and that is

07:40

if you know you have a conflict if you

07:43

work

07:44

and do stuff for texas realty and the

07:47

guy comes in and says I’m being evicted

07:49

by texas realty

07:50

you can't like look both ways and say

07:52

okay here's what you do

07:55

you can't do that obviously but as long

07:57

as you know if something could be just

07:59

another firm client you don't even know

08:01

about these big firms have clients you

08:02

don't know and you're giving those

08:03

limited services you're not taking them

08:05

in as a case because if you do I mean

08:07

you can but of course if you're a

08:09

big firm you're going to then have to

08:10

run the conflict's check and you'll file

08:12

you'll find out then

08:13

but if whatever you tell that lawyer and

08:16

know that

08:17

what that lawyer excuse me with that

08:19

client and what that pro bono client

08:21

tells you will not be imputed that's the

08:25

word

08:26

that you want it won't be imputed to the

08:28

lawyer's firm

08:29

as long as the certain steps are are

08:32

taken

08:33

to do that um all right now go ahead you

08:36

have a question pablo

08:37

uh yeah claude i do that so i don't make

08:39

the point here because you know this

08:40

website and the project we're doing this

08:42

for is for placement of cases and pro

08:44

bono extended services but

08:46

there actually is a phenomenon that we

08:47

have whenever a disaster hits we have a

08:50

great outpouring of  volunteers work there

08:52

you know what can i do and so these

08:53

legal clinics

08:54

at the very first beginning of disaster

08:56

recovery pop up you know where the bars

08:59

get together local bar associations and

09:00

send an army of people to

09:02

corpus or to like the harvey hit areas

09:04

when harvey hit

09:05

and i think what you are telling us

09:07

here for those clinics brief advice sit

09:09

down quickly review matters

09:10

this rule applies so that you can go

09:12

over there without having to worry about

09:13

the contract it's not about the extended

09:14

services

09:15

it's these quick ones you can do right

09:17

it's it's the the

09:19

the clinics that we go to from seven to

09:20

ten o'clock on monday nights and

09:22

typically like i say I usually end up

09:23

taking

09:24

somebody that's in an area that I know

09:26

how to do it but typically I’ll go in

09:28

there and give them just

09:29

clinic advice and and i'm always aware

09:31

that if something will rise later i

09:33

would never reveal that client's

09:34

confidences

09:35

or anything like that and that's what

09:36

it's mean it's just you don't have

09:38

here's the benefit you don't have the

09:40

risk that somebody's going to try to

09:42

you can be in a big firm and you can go

09:44

to these clinics and you don't have a

09:45

risk that somebody's going to conflict

09:47

you out as long as you are not

09:48

personally aware of that client now

09:51

there's let me also say all of these

09:53

rules I learned a lot about rulemaking

09:56

and you don't explain the rule

09:57

in the rule so there will be comments uh

10:00

that there will be comments that we uh

10:04

will write for the supreme court to

10:06

promulgate and those don't require both

10:07

lawyers to

10:08

to vote on them so this provision

10:11

in various forms has already been um

10:14

adopted

10:16

by the aba model rules and in 48 states

10:18

so texas

10:19

as usual is behind the curve

10:22

in adopting this rule so it was an easy

10:25

one to recommend and publish

10:28

any other questions on that well I think

10:30

that actually covers what we need

10:32

to hear on this rule and it's a perfect

10:33

recruitment tool that we have because we

10:34

had that issue before uh

10:36

bankruptcy issues employment issues the

10:37

big firms like you know how can I run my

10:39

checks before I go to these clinics or

10:41

these larger firms I think you just told

10:43

them now that you're okay unless you have

10:44

a direct conflict with it absolutely

10:46

so I think Belinda has a question on the

10:48

another aspect we see that might

10:50

be beyond the rules we wanted to have

10:51

you talk about

10:52

uh let me turn it over to you thank you

10:55

pablo

10:56

um after disaster um

11:00

we do as pablo said we do see a lot more

11:03

clients they have a myriad (mir-re-ad

11:05

of legal issues uh one of them is they

11:08

get solicited by contractors but they

11:10

also start getting solicited by

11:13

lawyers um so I just kind of wanted to

11:15

go into

11:17

when does that advertisement

11:18

solicitation crosses over into barratry 

11:21

how to spot it and then who to report it

11:23

to if you see it

11:25

okay let's go um to what we did too and

11:28

let me go through a couple of sections

11:30

of new uh rules 701 through 706.

11:33

now remember those um typically your

11:36

people that are doing pro bono aren't

11:38

going to know the advertising rules

11:39

because they don't advertise

11:40

but those that was the old section we

11:42

had rules 701 through 707

11:44

and we said there's no way we can

11:46

retrofit we completely

11:48

obliterated all seven rules and started

11:51

from scratch

11:52

now uh vince johnson professor at um

11:55

st mary's and amy bresnan uh a young

11:59

attorney

11:59

here in austin uh we were the the three

12:01

of us we worked for 20

12:03

months on these rules

12:05

to start from scratch and what we did

12:08

and how it affects pro bono is the

12:10

following first of all

12:11

the big overarching principle for these

12:14

whole all these advertising rules

12:16

is to look at whether or not whatever is

12:17

being said or represents 

12:20

we don't care where it comes from if it

12:22

comes from the sky if it comes from the

12:23

ground

12:24

if it's false or misleading it's going

12:25

to violate these rules

12:27

the next thing we did we'd we made a

12:30

clear and brightline distinction between

12:32

advertising versus solicitation and

12:35

quite frankly that simply is this and

12:37

it's easy to understand

12:39

advertising is something you throw out

12:41

into the universe

12:42

it's a I put it in a newspaper I put it

12:45

in a magazine

12:46

I put it in my church bulletin I put it

12:48

in my something

12:49

you know it I don't know who's going to

12:51

read it solicitation

12:53

think of me pointing at your nose I want

12:56

you to hire me

12:58

solicitation is a targeted communication

13:01

and belinda this is funny um that you

13:03

should mention this especially because

13:05

I’m thinking of all

13:06

uh the windstorm cases which is a huge

13:09

area in texas of solicitation by

13:12

lawyers and law firms um uh but just by

13:17

I don't know when this is gonna but i

13:18

was telling you a little story that just

13:19

two days ago less than two days ago

13:21

thursday morning this is friday

13:22

afternoon

13:23

we had our first big heavy hail storm

13:26

here in austin by that was at four in

13:28

the morning and it was luckily over very

13:30

quickly by 4:10 but

13:31

by 9 am I already got a telephone call

13:34

telling me I needed my roof

13:36

inspected it so I could hire somebody so

13:39

it's

13:39

way more popular than I ever expected so

13:42

I think that's what we're

13:44

we're doing so let's talk about that uh

13:47

solicitation

13:48

is perfectly okay by

13:51

um pro bono agencies and I know that's

13:55

not your question yet but I promise

13:56

to get and I promise to get your

13:58

question because remember

13:59

under these new rules any advertising or

14:03

solicitation has to be targeted towards

14:06

pecuniary gain you're looking to make

14:08

money

14:09

if you're looking simply to help someone

14:11

to advise them of their rights

14:13

to help them with their medicare to help

14:15

them you know do something from an

14:17

official

14:18

pro bono agency you're safe and secure

14:21

these don't apply to you now remember

14:23

again just like what we talked about

14:24

earlier

14:25

it's got to be a real pro bono agency it

14:27

can't be the claude decloux

14:29

you know pro bono agency because i

14:31

intend to do it for free unless i can

14:32

make money off

14:33

um you know so it's got to be a real pro

14:36

bono

14:37

agency for doing that so

14:41

we also allow you to contact experienced

14:44

users of like, for example, we know in

14:46

texas we preserved that rule

14:48

we wrote it that if i'm targeting you if

14:50

I write stuart campbell and I say stuart

14:53

I think you had an accident and I’d like

14:55

to help you with your car accident

14:57

because I’m good at this

14:58

and I’ll make you some money well I have

15:00

to put in there

15:01

this is an advertisement this is 

15:03

solicitation

15:04

however if you're in a firm that does

15:07

insurance defense you're allowed to

15:09

write to aetna and say

15:11

the Claude Decloux firm has five

15:12

insurance defense lawyers and we'd love

15:14

to have an interview with you and we

15:15

think we can

15:16

you know uh render services to you

15:19

because aetna is an

15:20

experienced user of legal services i

15:22

don't have to put that now

15:24

let's see how this let's go through what

15:26

your question was belinda

15:29

if someone contacts you now remember

15:32

it's

15:32

okay where there's a new opinion that

15:34

says if they're at a booth

15:36

at a flea market and they say come talk

15:38

to us

15:39

about wind storm damage as long as

15:41

you're not reaching out to anybody

15:43

they have to come to you that's still uh

15:46

legitimate

15:47

but if you're getting telephone calls

15:49

saying we think you were damaged

15:51

we'll send somebody out our firm will do

15:53

good that's a direct solicitation and

15:55

live contact is not allowed

15:59

we've expanded that not only to

16:01

telephone calls which are live

16:02

contact but live interactive contact so

16:07

emails that come to you directly that

16:09

you could respond to in a second

16:11

those are banned too facebook contacts

16:14

all those sorts of things are now

16:16

expanded remember

16:17

social media wasn't even a term it was

16:20

invented in 2003

16:22

so back in 1995 when they came up with

16:24

advertising rules there was no such

16:25

thing we called it

16:26

internet contact because we hadn't even

16:29

invented the

16:30

the term so um those sorts of things

16:34

are not permitted so when you get that

16:36

call 

16:37

that person that comes into your clinic

16:39

gets that call

16:40

uh they should be re-routed to the chief

16:43

disciplinary counsel's office

16:45

um who the firm was who was reaching out

16:48

to them

16:49

and let them uh take it from there now

16:52

also i am not as well-schooled in barratry

16:55

but i

16:55

that statute out there is burdensome and

16:58

brutal if you get

16:59

caught because remember if you reach out

17:03

and you violate the barratry

17:04

as you as an attorney I’m not talking

17:06

about any of your staff or your people

17:08

but

17:08

a lawyer who reaches out to barratry

17:10

even though they reach out to me and say

17:12

I want to hire you because I heard you

17:13

went through a hail storm I want you to

17:15

hire me

17:15

um I can sue them for barratry even if i

17:18

never signed a contract

17:20

the fines and the penalties and

17:22

everything are there even when i

17:24

never signed a contract so they've tried

17:26

to make it

17:27

very um very very burdensome for you

17:31

to reach out without authority to

17:33

someone to get them

17:34

to hire you yes Stuart you have a

17:37

question so I have a question about this

17:38

and this is gonna this is actually

17:39

something that's come up and talking to

17:41

other pro bono attorneys who've

17:42

volunteered for legal aid and it happens

17:45

a lot of times to my own personal

17:46

clients too

17:47

uh I represent people in evictions i

17:49

represent people in consumer debt issues

17:51

and we also can do stuff in municipal um

17:54

uh violations civil violations for code

17:56

violation stuff like that

17:57

and so a lot of times these a lot a lot

18:00

of

18:01

large law firms will somehow comb those

18:03

databases the court records and

18:05

and send targeted stuff, hey you were

18:07

sued here's your cause number

18:08

for this debt collection suit um

18:12

for a flat fee we can do this so

18:15

can you walk me through that do they

18:16

have to say explicitly it's it's an

18:18

advertisement because

18:20

my client will receive it and a lot of

18:22

times our clients are the most aren't

18:23

the most savvy or

18:24

or uh uh well informed on the legal uh

18:27

realm and so they'll be like oh I got

18:29

 four attorneys who want to

18:30

represent me why do I need this legal

18:31

aid attorney

18:33

why do I need this pro bono attorney

18:34

thank you for bringing that up, Stuart i

18:36

was actually

18:37

that's where I was going to because we

18:39

have so many clients that have given

18:41

thousands of dollars to these attorneys

18:42

before they find us

18:43

so it's like that debt collector you

18:46

know

18:46

don't pay us and it's a scam

18:50

and also between lawyers basically

18:52

lawyers that promote

18:53

unbundled services they are to be

18:56

avoided by with all costs

18:58

that's just you're throwing your money

18:59

away um

19:01

that's Claude on it I’m not an official

19:03

spokesman for anybody but Claude Decloux

19:05

with 44 years as a lawyer

19:06

and I’m telling you those unbundled

19:08

services are nothing but

19:11

trouble um so let's look at

19:14

to answer that question let's look at

19:16

rule 705.

19:17

the short answer to both your questions

19:19

is yes they have to say

19:21

this is an advertisement I want you to

19:24

hire me

19:25

the here are the exceptions 705e says

19:28

here the people you can call

19:30

without um putting down that it's an

19:33

advertisement

19:34

right um existing or former clients

19:37

that person they're reaching out to that

19:39

doesn't do

19:40

other lawyers or professionals that

19:42

client the reason that doesn't follow

19:44

that

19:44

person's known by the lawyer to be

19:47

experienced users like we talked about

19:49

your clients aren't experienced users

19:53

of legal services uh they can reach out

19:56

to members of non-profit

19:58

organizations who have asked them to

20:01

reach out to them

20:03

you can't just reach out to a non-profit

20:05

uh without you you can but you have to

20:06

put it's an advertisement

20:08

if the nonprofit says hey we're

20:10

delighted if you will

20:11

uh you know you know reach out to us

20:15

when you think there's something that

20:16

in the law that we might benefit from or

20:19

finally

20:20

and with most logically if that person

20:23

has asked you to reach out to them

20:25

those are the five categories I’ll say

20:27

them again existing and former clients

20:29

other lawyers persons known by the

20:31

lawyer to

20:32

to use legal services members of a 

20:35

a non-profit who have asked to be um

20:38

sent information and persons who have

20:40

asked to receive

20:41

notifications from you otherwise that

20:44

you still have to put on this is a this

20:46

is an advertisement we're trying to get

20:48

you to

20:48

hire us in in prominently display but i

20:52

i see and they're very

20:54

um I had a cousin in Los Angeles

20:57

who was in a lift accident she uber and

21:00

Lyft and

21:00

had an accident she said by the time she

21:03

got home that night

21:05

someone had and this firm in Los Angeles

21:07

this we specialize in uber and Lyft

21:10

and we can help you out so they know it

21:12

that's very

21:13

they got lots of if I’m on the receiving

21:17

end of this and my client has

21:19

received uh been inundated with letters

21:21

from attorneys trying to scope them

21:23

uh it's supposed to say it has an

21:25

this is an advertisement if it

21:27

doesn't who do i

21:28

who can I refer this to uh you to the

21:31

grievance committee

21:32

and you know I think you can also

21:35

I’m not sure of this not but I will find

21:37

out because of this

21:38

I think you can to the advertising

21:41

review committee

21:42

and they will refer it on

21:45

saying you know that they did not look

21:47

at they sent and now I’ve I’ve counseled

21:49

hundreds of

21:51

lawyers and many dozens of law firms and

21:54

seen them get in trouble

21:55

where it's in an innocuous letter where

21:58

they think hey

21:59

and I saw those exactly what you're

22:00

talking about Stuart and Belinda I see

22:02

There are lawyers that monitor every case

22:05

that gets filed the district clerk's

22:06

office

22:07

and they're just amazing and on how

22:10

because they'll look at the petition and

22:11

say oh they're suing john doe and he

22:13

lives at 123

22:14

elm street and they'll write a letter to

22:16

john doe hey I see you've been sued you

22:17

know we're good lawyers for this type of

22:18

suit

22:19

so they look at the petition where

22:21

they're going to serve it they just send

22:22

them a letter they beat the

22:24

the uh the service uh there to the house

22:28

so it's kind of yes pablo uh one

22:31

question caught and this is something

22:32

that i actually have to tell a lot of my

22:34

attorneys

22:34

also at trla when they start off and

22:36

they ask me you know i see this person

22:38

coming

22:38

these are going to be pro bonos

22:39

listening to this and they're going to

22:40

maybe see some of the examples you're

22:42

talking about

22:43

what i think they might want to be

22:44

careful with too is 4.04

22:47

which you know prohibits uh well you

22:49

should not

22:50

then put out the threat you're going to

22:52

file grievance against an attorney if

22:53

you're doing it strictly for advancement

22:54

of your civil matter

22:56

and i think a lot of us kind of slide

22:57

into a violation early on not realizing

22:59

that there is such a rule

23:01

uh and um yes I’m wondering you can

23:04

talk about that so pro bonus they see

23:06

the solicitation or the barratry and the

23:07

reporters don't go and

23:09

trip into that 4.04 violation yeah um

23:13

one of the earliest things i learned

23:15

when I was prosecuted at the state bar

23:17

was you can't threaten 

23:21

you can't threaten the grievance to gain

23:23

an advantage in a civil matter

23:26

um you know so it's almost better if you

23:29

really are

23:30

sincere just to notify the bar and don't

23:34

don't say you stop or I’m gonna notify

23:36

the bar

23:37

now the other part of that I’d say

23:40

is real important. I’m glad you brought

23:41

this up that people don't understand

23:43

is that you know um

23:47

404 also says that's the one rule

23:50

every time I go over the disciplinary

23:51

rules and the cle I say you know we know

23:54

we have these duties to our clients we

23:55

know we have fiduciary duties but

23:57

remember

23:58

there's one rule in just about every

24:00

state that says

24:01

you can't lie to the opposing party on a

24:04

matter of material

24:05

significance so if you let's use the

24:09

case where you're doing a collection

24:11

and you notify a guy okay I’m

24:12

representing a guy he wants 2,500 dollars

24:14

I’ll tell you what if you pay him 2,100

24:18

now you know he'll settle the case okay

24:21

the pro bono person on the other side

24:22

I probe say says okay let me think about

24:25

it calls you back two weeks okay I’ll

24:26

pay twenty-one hundred dollars

24:27

where do I have to check you and you

24:29

lines oh gosh

24:30

under the state law you only had seven

24:32

days to accept my offer and I have to

24:34

charge you ten percent more

24:35

well that's a lie you've misread you can

24:37

be grieved against you that you can be

24:39

disciplined for telling

24:41

that um material a lie of material fact

24:44

to the other party so those are that's

24:46

the other 404

24:47

uh thing that we have to always remind

24:49

people never make a misrepresentation

24:52

a material fact to an opposing party in

24:54

a lawsuit or claim or

24:56

any other uh thing as well as don't

24:59

don't

25:00

threaten a grievance uh against them

25:04

did that answer your question it does

25:06

Claude

25:07

it does actually uh and I think the

25:09

usual scenario that we see in our case

25:11

is in disaster assistance and you might

25:12

have some pro bono attorneys going to

25:14

like these clinics or disaster relief

25:15

centers and they sit and

25:16

listen and this is one that actually

25:18

happened a few years ago

25:19

and was prosecuted is that

25:22

they go around with the roofing

25:24

contracts and they make you signal

25:25

documents you know and then one of those

25:27

is actually attorney-client relationship

25:29

you actually have an attorney then hired

25:30

for your case you didn't even know about

25:31

and

25:32

that's an actual case it was prosecuted

25:34

by I think the at the federal level

25:36

for um that does not surprise me at all

25:39

I’m

25:39

always amazed I’ve seen so many

25:41

grievances

25:42

at just the chutzpah of these attorneys

25:45

of the things that they do I mean some

25:47

of them will

25:48

you know there's a certain part of the

25:50

state where this happens a lot where

25:51

they will have already hired an attorney

25:53

and they'll

25:54

they'll go over to the attorney's house so

25:55

I can get you out of this contract and

25:57

sign mine

26:00

what yeah here's both paths of

26:02

your contract that I tore in half

26:04

uh yeah it's just

26:07

let me just say I’m actually in south

26:09

texas in the valley so I’m glad you

26:10

didn't say what area of texas but

26:13

but through my experience of the

26:14

commission for discipline in six years i

26:15

realized that it happens everywhere as

26:17

soon as the disaster hit

26:18

east texas it can be in the north you

26:20

know when tornadoes hit

26:21

it's something about you know the

26:23

a vulnerable population is created after a

26:24

disaster

26:25

that just makes people just prey upon

26:27

them and yes it is by the way one of

26:29

one of the um changes and that I’m sure

26:32

we're going to

26:33

work our way through is that now if if

26:36

somebody

26:37

uh refers you in case you still can't

26:39

pay them but you can give them what say

26:42

a thank you of nominal value as

26:45

like you can take them out to dinner you

26:47

can you know do something like that

26:49

and of course, it doesn't really say what

26:50

that is and I’m sure we'll find out in

26:52

the comments in the coming years

26:54

what consists of nominal value in Dallas

26:56

versus south texas

26:58

oh well I’m sure we're going to push the

27:00

limit on those definitions for sure

27:03

that's a nominal value you know oh i

27:05

mean john grisham is going to be

27:06

inspired by some of the stuff that we're

27:08

going to do with that rule I’m sure here

27:09

but we'll see

27:10

but uh i don't know i think stuart did

27:13

you want to ask anything about the

27:14

Attorney client relationship

27:15

aspect yeah so um

27:18

according to Pablo's notes i don't know

27:20

this stuff but according to Pablo's

27:21

notes

27:22

uh it says by far the most prosecutions

27:25

of these types of grievances involve

27:27

rule 101.01 and 1.02

27:30

and uh and this part I do know about is

27:33

that uh

27:35

a lot of times when we refer to not a

27:37

lot of times but sometimes when we

27:39

 refer a case to a pro bono attorney

27:42

I’ve seen this happen on

27:43

on the bankruptcy side of the pro bono

27:44

stuff in fort worth

27:46

um we hear back from the uh

27:50

the client hey you referred me to this

27:53

person

27:53

three months ago why haven't I heard

27:55

from him oh

27:57

and so I was wondering if you could

27:58

kind of address that uh

28:00

your duties as a pro bono attorney or as

28:03

any attorney

28:03

under rule uh 1.01 and 1.02

28:07

sure yeah let me say one of the best

28:10

things I say about

28:11

being a speaker across the country

28:15

is that as well and hopefully it'll open

28:17

up again because

28:18

 I had some wonderful trips at these

28:20

conferences where I get invited speaking

28:21

I hear some other absolutely

28:23

terrific speakers and that I was in a

28:27

big meeting in Montreal and speaking one

28:30

of 

28:31

these lawyers had done um uh and this i

28:34

promise

28:34

Stuart relates to what you're talking

28:36

about he did  a

28:38

study of 10 years of malpractice cases

28:41

and categorized them and what percentage

28:44

of

28:45

um cases actually rely on a good faith

28:48

error by

28:49

by the lawyer um and I loved giving

28:53

this to a live crowd I said okay what

28:54

percentage of malpractice

28:55

cases generally speaking in the last 10

28:57

years were based upon the lawyer

28:59

actually making an

29:00

error well cutting you to the chase it

29:03

did vary some

29:04

somebody a little more but basically 15

29:07

the other 85 is because you pissed

29:10

off that client so badly

29:12

the number one grievance in America and

29:14

Canada

29:15

is my lawyer won't call me back I can't

29:18

get a hold of my lawyer

29:21

uh my lord you know and so it

29:24

I drill that in that this is a

29:26

relationship you have to tend

29:28

like a garden, it can change

29:31

weeds can grow in it you know and it's

29:34

because

29:34

lots of times you think you're going to

29:36

help and then you look at it

29:37

it's a lot more complicated I’m talking

29:39

from the perspective of the lawyer and

29:41

so it ends up in a bottom drawer

29:43

someplace and when that

29:44

client calls you have your legal

29:46

assistant say I’m in court

29:48

guess what you're not in court nobody's

29:50

in court

29:51

so quit using that excuse that I’m sorry

29:54

in court today, no he's not he's either

29:58

he's sitting behind a light with a zoom

30:00

camera at the very

30:02

best so um but it is so

30:05

important that you talk to that client

30:07

that you listen well

30:09

I always ask young lawyers you know when

30:11

I give this

30:12

lecture to third-year law students I say

30:15

all right this is a wonderful law school

30:16

if I was in Baylor last march and I said

30:19

you know gosh you're all going to pass

30:20

the bar this is the highest passage rate

30:23

now I want a show of hands and I’m

30:24

talking they're big I don't know where

30:25

you went to school but that big survey

30:27

room where all

30:28

the three of the sections how many of

30:30

you were taught how to interview a

30:31

client

30:32

two hands go up and one of them was a

30:35

professor

30:36

uh so you know so it was nobody

30:39

learns that and you have to learn we

30:41

have to learn from our psychotherapy

30:43

colleagues that healing begins when

30:45

people think they're being listened to

30:47

call that client call that person

30:51

let them know you're interested don't

30:53

interrupt them

30:54

they're you know one of the lectures i

30:56

listened to this morning in my long

30:58

15-minute walks I tried to take in the

31:00

morning to keep inside

31:01

is that the way you tell a story has a

31:04

big

31:05

uh influence on outcome and I don't mean

31:07

how

31:08

how great you speak it's the order that

31:10

you tell the facts

31:12

can lead to success or failure so go

31:15

through those facts with the client

31:16

because

31:17

you want to put them in an order that

31:19

the judge will understand there's just

31:21

so

31:22

there's a lot to this believe it or not

31:23

being a lawyer representing someone

31:25

yeah oh um

31:29

I just also want to reiterate for our

31:31

Pro bono volunteers

31:32

listening we do help disaster survivors

31:35

so

31:36

in addition to listening, you're also

31:37

dealing with some trauma they're

31:39

homeless they've lost

31:40

they've just watched all their stuff

31:43

float downstream

31:45

or blow away or catch on fire so

31:48

yeah be empathetic be sure you're

31:52

listening to him

31:52

they're going to be frazzled sometimes

31:54

they're not going to remember everything

31:56

they're dealing with a lot of

31:57

stuff at the time so don't take it that

32:00

they're trying to deceive you it's just

32:02

there is a lot going on and their legal

32:05

case may not be at the top of their

32:07

priority list right now

32:09

they need to get their kids food they

32:10

need to get power on in their house

32:13

so as far as being a good listener

32:16

that's one of the things we always go

32:18

over our new volunteers

32:20

and just basic cultural competency in

32:22

general and dealing with legal aid

32:23

clients

32:24

exactly thank you for saying that

32:26

because that is so so important

32:28

I always state it this way when I’m

32:30

giving the lecture

32:31

few people wake up in the morning say

32:34

you know what

32:35

the sun is shining the birdies are

32:36

tweeting I’m gonna go hire a lawyer

32:39

you know it usually relates to a huge

32:41

and unexpected

32:42

failure in their life the loss of

32:46

someone a betrayal by the most important

32:49

person in their life

32:50

they're going through the stages of

32:51

grief you have to calculate that in

32:54

and belinda as you said and Stuart as

32:56

you see in a lot of time it's like

32:58

you know yeah I gotta talk to you but i

33:00

don't know where dinner's coming from

33:01

tonight so you

33:02

have to figure that in be empathetic do

33:05

not be a machine

33:08

let them talk to you you know why

33:10

because ultimately

33:11

the goal of your interview with that

33:14

client and I want you

33:15

to write these two words down is

33:18

reasonable

33:19

expectations that is they understand

33:21

what you can do

33:23

and you understand what they can do

33:26

both sides have to be on that re you

33:28

can't just say well when I call you you

33:30

have to call back within five minutes

33:31

that is not a reasonable expectation

33:34

but they do expect you to call back in a

33:37

you'd contact them and that is actually

33:40

your duty whether you're getting paid or

33:42

not you can get your license suspended

33:45

if you breach that and harm someone so

33:48

be empathetic yeah and caught and

33:51

actually and I wanted to make this point

33:52

also for our pro bono volunteers how

33:54

they're not listening to this and

33:55

thinking oh my gosh I’m gonna take a pro

33:56

bono case and then find a grievance on

33:57

this and

33:58

I think my intent to share with the

34:00

notes here on the experience that I saw

34:01

from the prosecution's

34:02

be in the commission for lawyer

34:04

discipline is that it was so easy to

34:06

slip into a violation of 1.02

34:08

communication or 1.01

34:10

just because you didn't call back and i

34:11

think the mindset sometimes what

34:13

happened that you prioritize cases

34:14

because you have the business model of

34:16

practicing law you prioritize cases

34:17

you're going to call them back maybe

34:19

and it's possible that the pro bono case

34:20

might not you know

34:22

level up or come up to important matters

34:24

and before you know it you haven't

34:25

returned a call

34:26

you haven't done some work on it and you

34:27

might slide into the 1.02

34:29

it's so easy to just email text call the

34:32

client

34:32

and they just know what they're working

34:34

on my case they're doing this much how

34:35

that can go a long way and I wanted to

34:37

just kind of emphasize that in a minute

34:38

see that was your experience too with

34:40

the cases you've seen

34:41

and let me just tell you let me give you

34:43

three little rules

34:45

very easy rules every time

34:49

and you have to watch out for

34:50

anytime your client calls you and sort

34:52

of changes the narrative

34:54

or changes of fact always respond

34:58

and say that's not what we talked about

35:00

in our meeting on February 23rd

35:03

I’m saying did this just come up

35:05

recently if

35:06

they say to you for example well you

35:08

said this would be done by March 15

35:10

and you're going no I didn't you don't

35:12

just

35:13

shrug and turn away and go get a coke

35:16

you know you

35:17

you respond no no no no no that's

35:19

because

35:20

we count back to them what you talked

35:22

about that number two

35:24

the other thing uh that's number one

35:25

number two I have I got in a

35:28

really good and long before we got into

35:30

these the whole talk about vaccines i

35:32

used to call it the vaccine

35:34

what I got into the habit 20 years ago is

35:36

going in on a Sunday afternoon to my

35:37

office and writing

35:39

uh 15 two-sentence emails to clients hi

35:42

bob

35:42

I know you were expecting the

35:43

interrogatory answers on January 15th

35:45

they asked for an extension that's why

35:47

we haven't gotten them yet there they

35:49

have until uh

35:50

February 15th just want you to know I’m

35:52

thinking about your case

35:53

call me that's like an inoculation

35:55

against agreements

35:57

just that reach out that pro-active

36:00

reach out to your clients that's

36:01

that's rule number two and number three

36:05

is what we

36:05

already talked be empathetic just

36:08

because your client

36:09

is stressed and perhaps is saying things

36:11

that he wouldn't say under normal

36:13

circumstances

36:14

does not give you the right to respond

36:16

in kind

36:18

uh you know you know they will say

36:20

because people are horribly stressed out

36:22

and try to take a breath and say I 

36:25

don't want anything I get

36:26

I say to be up on a PowerPoint you know

36:29

so

36:29

uh that's the way I look at it I’ve been

36:31

on too many grievances and said did you

36:33

really call him an *********

36:35

um yeah I guess i did I’m sorry yeah

36:38

so think about that take a breath you're

36:41

the professional

36:42

you always have the duty to be the

36:44

professional

36:45

you know and caught I want to also

36:46

mention to our pro bono is that one of

36:48

the things the benefits of us placing

36:49

cases with you all is that i'm sure

36:51

stuart and belinda see there in their

36:53

programs we can help you with the

36:55

communication if you have overwhelmed

36:57

and you want to tell the client what's

36:58

going on

36:59

you let us know a little bit about that

37:00

and then we can go ahead and you know

37:01

give a call to client and we actually

37:03

have a sense of a duty to do that

37:04

because we have to make sure that the

37:06

services are provided for that client

37:08

the problem with that balancing their uh

37:10

Claude is that

37:11

then I think sometimes some pro bonos

37:13

might feel that okay well

37:15

it's their case it's not really my case

37:16

and I just kind of emphasize you have an

37:18

attorney-client relationship with that

37:20

client you've got to deal with the case

37:21

responsibly it's not our case we'll help

37:23

you with it

37:23

and so I want to see if you could talk

37:25

about that, you know that the balancing

37:26

act that happens there or to understand

37:28

that it is an attorney-client relationship

37:29

it's a case you got to take and move

37:30

forward

37:31

well let me refer to what I always tell

37:33

young lawyers generally about the road

37:36

to success

37:37

and it applies to your pro bono action

37:39

too

37:40

um always do your part of the work

37:44

in my experience the longer you let that

37:46

pro bono's case that you agreed to take

37:48

just sit there thinking I’ll get to it

37:50

you won't get to

37:51

if you jump honestly my

37:55

experience has been the quicker you jump

37:57

on it the faster it's going to be over

37:59

and it'll be over much more quickly if

38:01

the other side sees that there's

38:02

somebody who's going to

38:04

get onto it quickly and it's just not

38:06

going to languish and

38:07

do that the other thing is I said if

38:09

you've promised someone

38:12

the secret to success is to do what you

38:15

say you do when you say you're going to

38:17

do it

38:18

I cannot stress that enough if I could

38:19

say it 100 times if I’ve promised

38:21

another

38:22

lawyer that I will have the decree of

38:24

the divorce there on Wednesday

38:26

it's there on Wednesday we all know

38:28

lawyers in our towns

38:30

that whenever we see him or her on the

38:33

other side

38:33

we look at our legal assistant and say

38:36

we're going to be doing

38:37

every document in this case because

38:39

there will be at least

38:40

uh three grandparents that die during

38:42

this case that they can't

38:44

you know they'll be you know I’m sorry

38:46

their dog

38:47

got run over during ...I can't there's

38:50

always an excuse that they come up with

38:51

and we're ready for it

38:53

and I just would you ever refer a case

38:56

to that lawyer

38:57

who does that to you never the way you

39:00

succeed is do what you say you're doing

39:02

on time and then everybody says because

39:05

we came up through an era I’m 69 years

39:07

old where there was no

39:08

internet there was no anything all of my

39:11

work

39:12

came from other lawyers who said it's

39:15

fun to do

39:16

business with Claude he's on time he's

39:18

pleasant to deal with he's

39:19

accurate and for my own clients who have

39:22

the same feeling

39:23

there was no advertising all of my

39:24

success came from

39:26

other lawyers and my own clients and

39:28

that's the way that the

39:30

to build your success and I will tell

39:32

you doing

39:33

pro bono work is the work of god I mean

39:36

it I’m just telling you it is just

39:38

so important and so you are all such

39:41

important cogs

39:43

in the justice system a justice system

39:45

that's tilting up on two wheels every

39:47

now and then

39:48

uh and we need you out there to to

39:52

show everyone what the rule of law

39:54

means and thank god

39:56

that we had that in December

39:59

and you know before that finally it

40:02

helped

40:03

they brought these nonsensical lawsuits

40:05

and they said

40:06

sorry gotta have evidence here no

40:09

evidencey no judgmenty

40:11

you know uh so

40:14

you're really important yeah pablo did

40:16

you ever

40:17

I do and I’m uh i hate to hog

40:20

this but you know I do it almost every

40:22

time anyway so they're Stuart Belinda

40:23

of use to this um

40:25

but uh another thing that I actually

40:26

didn't put down in the notes when we

40:27

shared with you when preparing for this

40:28

but i think it's happening now and i

40:30

wanted to hear from you

40:31

the uniform bar exam now is in place in

40:33

texas so you have attorneys that might

40:35

be able to license

40:36

in several states might practice

40:37

somewhere else and then come into texas

40:39

then you know and then

40:40

and start the practicing there that

40:42

plus there

40:43

exists something like that already when

40:45

disaster hits you have emergency supreme

40:47

court orders that allow for another

40:48

state attorney to assist a certain

40:50

extent

40:51

with the disaster recovery so they have

40:52

to come in you know and apply their

40:53

knowledge maybe to a federal case of

40:55

FEMA benefits bankruptcy that can be

40:57

interchangeable I never thought about

40:59

this but

41:00

how would she recommend that as a pro

41:02

bono community or a local attorney in an

41:04

area see these folks coming in from

41:06

other jurisdictions

41:07

how would you recommend that you explain

41:09

to them where they can go to to learn

41:11

disciplinary people's professional

41:12

conduct and not stumble into a violation

41:15

well of course there's wonderful online

41:17

courses

41:18

on that and in fact I there is one i

41:21

think that I do on the

41:22

on trust accounting all those kind of

41:24

things that the uh if

41:27

what uh the chief disability council is

41:30

they have to watch that hour

41:32

as part of their cle punishment on how

41:35

to do their trust account so there's

41:36

there's lots of good resources

41:38

out there I will tell you honestly I’ve

41:41

probably represented almost 200 kids

41:43

over the last 40 years for the board of

41:44

law examiners too

41:46

and it's this is Claude on it right now

41:49

because of this whole shutdown

41:51

it's everything is really slow and

41:54

stodgy

41:55

and everything but my experience has

41:57

been if you want to

41:58

learn and judge and see and if someone

42:01

will

42:02

sign on to you to practice pro hoc vice

42:04

and say yes

42:05

claude will be ultimately responsible

42:07

I’ve only known one or two attorneys

42:09

and there's for the right reason where a

42:11

judge didn't let them practice pro hoc

42:13

vice

42:14

or pro hoc vichay if you went to catholic

42:16

school um

42:17

you know so you know

42:21

that’s the way to to learn it but

42:23

there's nothing like being

42:24

thrown in the lion's den saying here's

42:26

what it is or have a mentorship

42:28

I’ve been

42:32

involved in many mentor programs and one

42:34

comment on those

42:35

is some of the lawyers I see that need

42:37

mentors don't ask for them

42:39

and some of the lawyers ask for them are

42:40

just great they're so easy to mentor

42:42

because they really ask

42:43

good question and they're easy to do but

42:46

reach out find I always say what is the

42:49

best research tool

42:50

in the state of texas for lawyers it's

42:52

called the telephone

42:54

call a lawyer who knows how to do that

42:57

area

42:58

lawyers love to help other lawyers

43:00

especially lawyers that are doing things

43:02

uh pro bono I will bend over backwards

43:05

you know

43:06

giving you forms and pleadings and

43:08

anything

43:09

that you want so reach out to other

43:13

lawyers they're

43:14

great great source of health inspiration

43:17

and support

43:19

we can attest to the fact that you're

43:20

recording this on Friday afternoon

43:22

at two three o'clock so i mean anybody

43:24

that does this for pro bono attorneys

43:26

and legal aid's got to be

43:27

a special you know and support it then

43:29

we're going to ask a question I don't

43:30

want to continue

43:31

making other points oh I was just going

43:33

to reiterate what Claude said it's like

43:35

yeah if you're having

43:36

a problem or you feel like a little over

43:39

your head reach out to us

43:40

we have mentorship we have housing

43:43

unions we have public benefits units

43:45

that people who do this every day and

43:46

can answer your questions

43:48

um if even with the communication if

43:51

you're getting a little behind

43:52

let us know if you're having trouble

43:53

contacting a client let us know

43:55

we are we want to make this experience

43:58

as painless as possible and get a good

44:01

result

44:02

and let me also say there's some

44:04

additional

44:05

benefits besides just that you're a good

44:08

person

44:09

um uh and you're earning grace to go to

44:13

heaven but uh

44:14

there's a side benefits are a lot of

44:16

times you get exposed to the areas of

44:18

the law

44:19

and you learn from this and you say you

44:21

know what I like this area of the law

44:23

I did my first civil uh habeas corpus

44:27

on a you know it was actually the mom

44:29

that ran awaywith the child and I was

44:31

appointed to do that i was

44:33

a 35-year lawyer I hadn't done one of

44:34

those before but I thought you know I’ve

44:36

done hundreds of divorces I think i

44:38

could figure this out and i did and i

44:40

won that case and that was something

44:42

like you know I would

44:43

never have been exposed except i got to

44:46

sign that case

44:47

by a pro bono agency and it was a really

44:50

good experience and learning how to do

44:52

housing law learning labor law and

44:54

learning those things

44:55

is a terrific side benefit and you know

44:59

a lot of my experience that I learned is

45:02

because of being thrown into things that

45:05

maybe I didn't really want to do

45:07

but it's given me this wealth of

45:09

experience and

45:10

led me to doing last year I did 121 cle

45:14

speeches

45:15

in all 50 states so uh and I think

45:18

people

45:19

like most the stories of of how i

45:22

learned this and

45:23

what I did wrong I said i always start

45:26

this way I wish I could say i'm smart

45:27

enough that

45:28

i can do all this i'm probably telling

45:30

you everything i did wrong

45:32

as a lawyer you know little tricks like

45:34

going to trial

45:35

and my very first jury trial was on the

45:37

defense side and i had a great poster

45:39

for my closing argument

45:41

well the first the plaintiff lawyer gets

45:43

up and does his closing argument and

45:45

draws through it with a magic marker

45:47

you know just he ruins my exhibit well

45:50

what do you do

45:51

how do you stop that you mark it as an

45:53

exhibit put a sticker on it then he

45:55

can't do that to you see a little tiny

45:57

trick

45:58

that you learn by making the mistake so

46:01

don't be scared of doing it

46:02

you get great you you sleep better at

46:04

night you help people it's wonderful you

46:06

for your own psyche

46:08

it keeps you going you know what we have

46:11

to keep tied to our time here claude i

46:12

know you've got another commitment so

46:13

we're almost near the end but I wanted

46:15

to just make a point before

46:16

uh I forget about this and you might not

46:18

know about this but if you take on a pro

46:20

bono case and it's in the field that

46:21

you're not

46:22

like the behaviors you mentioned about

46:24

you can actually earn up to five hours

46:26

of cle

46:27

for that pro bono case for having

46:28

there's something new and as a mentor

46:30

he can also actually gain a cle credit

46:33

to mentor somebody else along the way so

46:35

if it's a pro bono case you're going

46:36

through ethical issues, you find a mentor

46:38

that gives some information

46:39

consider calling us letting us know

46:40

about it so you can gain some cle credit

46:42

and get at least one-fifth of your cle

46:44

requirements that way

46:46

um as we're about to end here claude i

46:47

want to ask you for a story because uh

46:50

let me tell you what i've learned um on

46:52

the commission for

46:53

discipline remember seeing some names of

46:55

respondents counseling you were part of

46:56

that

46:57

you know you see some people you're like

46:58

okay this person needs to help this

46:59

attorney right complain

47:01

this person if somebody was there to

47:02

give a mentorship it'd be great come out

47:04

of this

47:04

and more often than not your name and a

47:06

few other people are like okay they're

47:07

involved they're gonna take him out of

47:09

there they're gonna

47:10

they're gonna make sure that they're

47:11

fine and they're gonna correct their

47:12

waste and that was always a positive

47:13

thing I think

47:14

to see some help being given to them do

47:16

you want to tell us a story for our pro

47:18

bono attorneys maybe

47:19

you know one that you remember where you

47:20

came in an attorney was just came in to

47:22

you at a very

47:22

dark heavy time and you assisted and

47:26

helped him in some way that now

47:27

improved his way and learned from that

47:29

well yes

47:31

I got a call for a lawyer and actually I

47:33

think this is a wonderful lawyer but he

47:35

was in the

47:36

depths of depression we have taken on

47:38

this thing

47:39

and i just want you all to know when

47:41

I’m telling this story I think we all

47:43

feel this way

47:44

he was going through what the

47:47

psychologists call imposter syndrome

47:49

said

47:49

I’m not good enough to do this  I’m

47:52

depressed and I feel like I ought to

47:53

just quit

47:54

and I just ought to pack my bag and uh

47:57

you know we talked

47:58

we went to lunch together and I just

48:00

talked and I told him

48:02

I just want you know we all feel this

48:04

way every morning I get up and I think

48:06

am I good enough to do this today and

48:09

you know I get a little better but

48:12

going out and doing it

48:14

I never picked a jury without having you

48:16

know

48:17

to evacuate so to speak before I did it

48:20

because it was it was never

48:21

uh you know it was no and then once i

48:23

get started boom I’m on stage and I’m

48:25

going but we all feel that way the fact

48:27

that you feel

48:28

insecure and that you're not good enough

48:30

is what we all go through but you

48:32

are and you're doing the right things

48:34

and you need to reach out to people like

48:35

me

48:36

for for just to confirm it and your

48:39

other people because you're well thought

48:40

of

48:41

and you're going to do a great job in

48:44

this and it really does help people

48:45

get through I don't know if that's a

48:47

A story that you wanted but that's a

48:49

typical thing that we go through to

48:51

reassure people

48:53

that they're okay and that's normal for

48:55

them to feel stressed out

48:59

no, I think that's what we need and we

49:01

need that the claude because I think you

49:02

heard us talking about

49:03

when you have disaster recovery not only

49:05

is the community going through that but

49:07

you as an attorney might also be going

49:08

through it, your office might have been

49:09

affected your work your courts

49:11

and I think we talked about that in

49:13

other issues like

49:14

I feel that we get a wave of volunteers

49:17

coming in for disaster assistance

49:18

because

49:18

they're trying to say how can we all

49:20

recover from this how can I help out

49:22

and it makes the person feel a little

49:24

bit better i can't even imagine waking

49:25

up you know that one day

49:27

you're thinking this there's so much

49:28

going on I can't get to my office I go

49:29

to my pro bono case and then this

49:31

imposter syndrome comes about I mean why

49:32

am I doing this am I doing the right

49:34

thing so

49:35

to have you who's given 120 some

49:37

presentations on cle say that

49:39

that you go through that I think is

49:40

something that at least for us here as

49:42

an audience can say that

49:43

it's good to know that we all go through

49:44

that because um it can't weigh heavily

49:46

upon you and I think how many

49:48

grievances can have been avoided if somebody

49:50

just told somebody else that you know

49:52

we're all in the same boat kind of like

49:53

in law school

49:54

you know we're all in the same boat

49:56

we're all going to be having a difficult

49:57

time here

49:58

so I think and the problem is that

49:59

hollywood lies to us hollywood says that

50:02

they're

50:02

we're full of energy and all we have to

50:03

do is make one phone call and someone's

50:05

going to run over a million dollar check

50:07

to us

50:08

and i'm going, not in this universe so

50:11

you know so don't watch LA law that

50:14

everybody just

50:15

you know got to porsche their second year

50:20

Claude I think we've taken up here a lot

50:21

of your time when we're getting down to

50:23

the hour here I don't know belinda

50:24

Stuart you have anything else to say or

50:26

comment before we

50:26

log on out here and let clot continue

50:29

with this Friday

50:30

aside from thank you it's been great

50:32

thank you thank you so much for doing

50:34

this

50:35

it was my pleasure to call we're very

50:38

lucky to have you here

50:39

thank you so much not only for what you

50:40

do for the service uh for you and i

50:42

i got to tell you I don't know this but

50:44

I oversee the pro bono program also or

50:45

some of the projects in the trla and i

50:47

remember going to

50:48

the divorce at one of the clinics there

50:50

at in austin and there you were almost

50:51

every time I was there that you come in

50:53

do your five six interviews and then

50:55

take off you know it was amazing you see

50:56

i'm like that's god right there he's so

50:58

busy but he still finds time to do the

50:59

pro bono work so

51:01

thank you for all those years of service

51:02

and before you did for the profession

51:04

thanks everybody and everybody keep the

51:07

faith