The Importance of Title Clearing for Disaster Survivors

Join Texas Disaster Legal Help (TDLH) for their new podcast on title clearing. Listen as Speaker Dina Hardwick delves into the effects of an uncleared title on a disaster survivor. Learn quick ways to clear the title without probate. Find out how to deal with manufactured homes transfers of ownership, and how to determine if the mobile home is personal property or real property. 

Visit our website at https://texasdisasterlegalhelp.org/

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Transcript

Speaker:

Dina Hardwick (Texas RioGrande Legal Aid)

(Recorded Oct 9,2020) 

00:04

okay hello folks this is pablo

00:07

almaguer

00:08

as you all know the director of private

00:09

Bar government relations and that's a

00:11

title that does not come with money by

00:12

the length of the title

00:14

it's just a fancy one i am an attorney

00:15

for twenty two years there

00:17

and working together with belinda

00:19

martinez and stuart campbell here and

00:21

this series of

00:21

podcasts we're doing for the tdlh

00:24

website

00:25

and some of the resources that pro

00:27

bono attorneys can use

00:29

to give you an idea real quick what this

00:30

project is about before we go to our

00:32

great speaker here i'm just going to

00:33

tell you a little bit about it

00:34

we are a coordinated project between

00:37

Legal aid of  northwest texas lone star

00:38

legal aid in texas rio grande legal aid

00:40

aimed at improving access to justice for

00:42

those affected by disasters a project

00:44

allows both disaster survivors and pro

00:46

bono attorneys

00:47

to access critical resources in one

00:49

place while at the same time making it

00:51

easier to connect disaster survivors

00:53

needing legal help

00:54

with volunteer attorneys willing to

00:55

provide it in this way the project team

00:57

hopes to increase the number of disaster

00:59

survivor clients who receive high

01:00

quality legal assistance

01:02

as they continue to navigate the

01:03

recovery process after a disaster

01:05

and provide the support and membership

01:07

And mentorship pro bono attorneys need to

01:09

achieve

01:10

success the website in case you don't

01:12

know about it and if you're not there

01:14

watching this video

01:15

and for some reason you are somewhere

01:16

else or listening to this podcast

01:18

the website is

01:23

texasdisasterlegalhelp.simplejustice.org

01:24

once again texas disaster legal help

01:28

dot simplejustice.org look at that

01:30

website you'll find many more resources

01:32

and information to help you

01:33

to do this case or pro bono case that

01:35

you're looking at      so this time i'm going

01:36

to hand it over to belinda martinez

01:38

who's going to introduce our speaker and

01:40

the topic they should be speaking about

01:41

today

01:41

belinda thank you pablo well our topic

01:45

today

01:46

is title clearing and our guest today is

01:48

dina hardwick

01:50

dina received her bachelor's in

01:51

education from texas state university

01:53

san marcos

01:54

after teaching public school in san

01:56

antonio for several years dina accepted

01:58

an academic scholarship to texas tech

02:00

university school of law in lubbock she

02:02

graduated in two thousand four her legal experience

02:05

includes criminal defense

02:06

probate guardianship and real estate

02:09

title work

02:10

her passion for public interest work led

02:12

her to leave a successful private

02:14

practice and joined texas rio grande

02:16

legal aid in two thousand seventeen

02:18

after hurricane harvey devastated the

02:20

communities she calls

02:22

home      within TRLA she's a member of the

02:24

disaster assistance team

02:26

the wills probate team and assists the

02:28

housing team

02:30

the majority of her case work includes

02:31

helping clients navigate

02:33

FEMA ihp and the

02:37

sba disaster loan process handling

02:40

probate matters and clearing title to

02:42

various types of property for her

02:43

clients to qualify for housing

02:45

assistance

02:46

she is a passionate advocate for our

02:48

clients as they work towards rebuilding

02:50

their lives following the devastation of

02:51

natural disasters

02:53

thank you for joining us dina

02:54

absolutely thank y'all for asking me to

02:56

be a part of this i'm excited

02:58

well let's go and get into it our

03:00

listeners come from variety of

03:01

backgrounds so let's

03:02

just start with the basics what does

03:05

clear title mean and why is it important

03:07

for the recovery process

03:09

sure clear title usually what you're

03:11

talking about

03:12

is does somebody have a right to live in

03:14

a home

03:15

or we're talking post disaster do they

03:18

have the right to repair that home

03:20

so our clients come to us after a

03:21

disaster they've been through a serious

03:24

trama

03:25

they're displaced they have no access

03:27

possibly to

03:29

a roof over their head technology

03:31

internet

03:32

pictures important documents i mean they

03:34

are at the worst

03:35

that you can imagine okay so they're

03:37

trying to access direct services either

03:40

financial assistance to literally help

03:42

them get back into their home repair

03:43

their home

03:44

qualify for a new home and at the heart

03:47

of most of their legal issues that they

03:49

come to us

03:49

is a title issue do they

03:52

own their home can they prove their home

03:55

and most people asking them those

03:56

questions are going to say

03:57

do you have a deed to your home most of

04:00

our clients do not have a deed

04:01

did you inherit it through probate has a

04:03

will been probated

04:05

a lot of our clients there's been a lot

04:06

of informal transfers they've maybe

04:08

bought a property and

04:09

never even considered that there needed

04:11

to be deed work closing

04:12

title documents  regionally some of

04:15

our clients might live in a recreational

04:17

vehicle down on the coast

04:18

such as you know the rock port aransas

04:20

pass area  and we'll talk about that a

04:22

little bit later but you know different

04:23

types of housing for our clients has

04:25

different types of requirements a

04:26

manufactured home

04:27

statement of ownership is different than

04:29

a recreational title vehicle

04:31

versus a site built home with a

04:32

traditional deed so when we talk about

04:34

title

04:35

what we're really talking about is in

04:36

order for our clients to get financial

04:38

assistance or repair assistance or

04:40

furnishings or clothing they have to be

04:42

able to show that they have a right

04:44

to live in that home and some kind of

04:46

ownership proof of ownership why why are

04:48

we going to put money into a home if you

04:49

don't own it or it

04:50

can be foreclosed or it can be taken

04:51

from you or somebody else can

04:54

claim ownership to that property so

04:55

that's what we're talking about we talk

04:56

about title and it might be like i said

04:58

different forms

04:59

but ultimately the gold standard would

05:00

be a deed and then all the different

05:02

ways to get around that

05:04

 alternate ways to prove ownership

05:06

interest

05:08

okay you said most of our clients 

05:11

have not done any sort of probate

05:12

process because they usually have to

05:14

have a lawyer for that and

05:16

our clients are very limited on their

05:17

income just for our pro bono attorneys

05:20

out there

05:20

do you have to probate the estate to get

05:22

the house transferred into their name

05:24

no not necessarily there's several

05:26

different ways depending on the client

05:27

situation and what they have

05:29

going on it could be something and

05:32

different programs have different

05:33

requirements it could be something as

05:35

simple as an affidavit of heirship

05:37

something that might take a few hours a

05:39

few days the attorney needs to

05:41

act as an investigator a detective get a

05:44

really clear family history

05:46

sometimes filing that affidavit of

05:48

heirship in the real property records in

05:49

the county where the property is located

05:51

and showing that our client has an

05:53

 inheritance interest even if it's

05:55

fractional might be enough to qualify

05:57

them for some programs

05:59

obviously the the title is not clear

06:02

at that point we are just showing that

06:03

our clients have an interest in the home

06:05

the property

06:07

ideally you would want to then follow

06:08

that up with gift deeds whether it makes

06:10

our client

06:11

a 25 owner 50 owner you know again the

06:14

gold standard would be getting them to

06:15

be a 100

06:16

owner but it could be something as

06:18

simple as an affidavit of heirship

06:20

if an affidavit of heirship doesn't work

06:23

 you would move on to different

06:24

forms that could get more complex and

06:26

lengthy pablo do you have a question

06:28

do you want to interject oh wow that

06:29

sounds like a teacher there thank you

06:30

yeah i just kind of wanted to prompt you

06:32

here on the video but thank you 

06:34

You know

06:34

dina i was just wanted to say this

06:35

because actually i forgot that you know

06:37

to mention that our audience might

06:38

include law students and even law

06:39

professors

06:40

and  these projects as you mentioned

06:43

them

06:43

they're probably good ones to have law

06:45

students work on like you know

06:47

on a spring break winter break or summer

06:49

break because there's extent they're

06:50

they're compact they can be done in a

06:52

week or so and i wanted to make sure

06:53

that people knew

06:54

about that yeah that's a really good

06:56

point pablo we've had 

06:58

i've personally had assistance from st

07:00

mary's  texas tech smu school of law

07:03

law students have been very very helpful

07:05

when they're doing especially their you

07:07

know their clinic practice experience

07:09

it gives them

07:10

real clients real important issues to

07:12

work on so those are

07:13

perfect for law students they can get

07:15

practice interviewing clients

07:17

gathering facts a lot of times when

07:20

you're talking about clearing title

07:22

it's as if you're building a flow chart

07:24

you're looking at property that might

07:26

have you know originated with title back

07:28

in the 1940s 1930s

07:30

and then you're stepping through the

07:31

present day where has it been

07:34

who's it gone to who should have it now

07:36

or or in our case

07:37

how is it now our clients how you know

07:39

they've lived there for all these years

07:40

how can we prove that you know they

07:41

deserve

07:42

the financial assistance or the repair

07:44

assistance because they actually are the

07:46

true owners of the home and how can we

07:47

get that

07:48

you know to match up in a  chain of

07:50

title but those are great

07:51

great cases for law students to help us

07:53

with and they do and some of the laws

07:54

clinics you know take on a little bit

07:56

more complex cases with 

07:58

with the attorneys supervising or with

07:59

their clinical professors supervising so

08:01

we're always happy to have them

08:04

thanks 

belinda did you want me to

08:08

talk about some other types of clearing

08:09

title or what you want me to talk about

08:12

well actually i just want to get started

08:14

on the process of the affidavit heirship

08:16

i know

08:17

even some of our estate attorneys out

08:18

there may not be familiar with that

08:20

document i know i wasn't when i started

08:22

at lone star kind of just walk through what

08:24

an affidavit of heirship

08:25

is yeah if you're going to use an

08:27

affidavit of heirship to show an

08:29

inheritance interest from

08:30

for one of our clients  like i said

08:32

you're going to have to gather

08:34

 complete family history because what

08:36

we're what you're trying to do

08:38

 without the actual judicial process

08:40

and we can talk about that in a second

08:42

too

08:42

is you're actually trying to show you

08:44

know who has a claim on the property

08:46

and what you're trying to do is you're

08:47

trying to prevent anybody

08:50

other than our client and the known

08:51

heirs to having a claim that's what's

08:53

going to prevent them from you know

08:54

getting the direct assistance

08:55

so you're going to get a complete family

08:57

history  you're normally only going to

08:59

use an affidavit of heirship if it

09:01

if it is real property only if the

09:03

client has

09:04

you know bank accounts they don't have

09:06

payable upon death or beneficiary

09:08

designations

09:09

you wouldn't want to use it for that if

09:10

the client has outstanding debts and

09:12

there's potentially liens

09:14

you can't use it because there would

09:16

need to be an inventory done

09:17

in a court so that you know it doesn't

09:20

look like you're trying to dodge

09:21

creditors or anything like that if the

09:24

 decedent owned the property had

09:26

received medicaid and there might be a

09:28

medicaid estate recovery claim

09:30

you can't use it for that so sometimes

09:32

it's really just if there's

09:33

you know one property at issue we know

09:37

who the heirs were who the family

09:38

members were we have prepared affidavits

09:41

of heirship for

09:42

non-family member transactions before

09:44

gotten in touch with with you know

09:46

people that aren't our clients say you

09:48

know in order to clear this property for

09:49

a client

09:50

we need to do an affidavit of heirship

09:51

for your mother would you be willing

09:53

to cooperate and we've had people have

09:55

said absolutely you know i know that my

09:56

mother sold that property without a deed

09:58

many years ago

09:59

we never probated her will you know so

10:02

so sometimes it's not necessarily your

10:04

clients family members other other

10:05

people in the chain they're going to get

10:06

our clients where they need to be

10:08

but you put together the family history

10:10

you have to have a really good  legal

10:11

description

10:12

so you know it's not just the the

10:14

address you know

10:15

107 smith street it has to be the actual

10:18

legal description

10:19

that at some point has had a survey done

10:22

so you're going to want to have to do

10:23

you know i do a lot of digging around in

10:24

the cad

10:25

tax assessor records many of our

10:28

paralegals are wonderful they will go

10:29

down

10:30

in person to the county clerk's offices

10:32

we have working relationships with the

10:33

county clerks to pull those deeds for us

10:35

and you're basically doing a title

10:38

search 

10:39

on your own you feel pretty good about

10:40

you've looked at all the various owners

10:43

up the chain to make sure you have a

10:44

really good

10:46

legal description the affidavit of

10:48

heirship is worthless if you're not

10:49

actually describing the property

10:51

that you're trying to get the client

10:53

title to so you have to have a good

10:54

legal description and then you have to

10:56

go through the marital history of all

10:57

the parties involved

10:59

were they married how long were they

11:00

married did somebody pre-decease

11:02

somebody did they remarry

11:04

did they have children in this marriage

11:06

do they have children in that marriage i

11:08

mean it's a very

11:09

 you know detail-oriented process as

11:12

far as

11:13

you have to really show point a to point

11:15

b of who has ownership of that property

11:17

if somebody's passed away  do their

11:20

children now have an inheritance

11:21

interest you know it's not uncommon for

11:23

our clients

11:24

to own property with a couple of

11:25

generations below them because

11:27

siblings have passed away and had had

11:29

children if there's not a will you know

11:30

it's just going to keep on going down

11:32

and

11:32

 into the intestate statutes but

11:36

you gather up all that information and

11:38

the client has to be able to swear that

11:40

yes this is correct there are no debts

11:42

there's no medicaid recovery claim

11:45

11:45

as a point of practice i mean we ask our

11:48

clients to gather all that information

11:49

for us

11:50

and we we have to actually also 

11:53

11:54

show you know feel good about it

11:56

ourselves before we help them execute

11:57

these documents

11:58

that the information is correct so we

11:59

will send out notices to

12:02

you know medicaid estate recovery plan

12:04

hms is the contractor in austin and say

12:07

this is the decedent this is your social

12:08

security number this is their date of

12:10

death are there any outstanding claims

12:12

there is an outstanding claim can we get

12:15

the claim cleared up

12:16

can we get them an exemption so that we

12:18

can move forward with the affidavit of

12:20

heirship or are we going to have to look

12:21

at a different probate process

12:23

we gather all that up in a document and

12:25

then the client is responsible for

12:27

finding

12:27

two disinterested witnesses two people

12:30

that are not going to inherit or have a

12:31

claim on that property

12:33

that don't have any kind of reason why

12:35

they might be dishonest

12:37

in executing this affidavit so you're

12:40

going to have one main

12:41

affine and then you're going to have a

12:42

corroborating affidavit to go with it so

12:44

that's what satisfies

12:46

you know the county clerk's standards

12:47

and the statutory standards of okay we

12:49

now have two disinterested people that

12:51

signed off and said i knew this person

12:53

for this long i'm familiar with their

12:55

marital history i'm familiar with who

12:56

their children are i'm familiar with the

12:58

property

12:58

and yes this person that you're saying

13:00

inherited a quarter interest or 100

13:02

interest it this is all true and correct

13:04

you file that at the real property

13:06

records and then once that's filed

13:09

it sits there uninterrupted for several

13:10

years i mean it's it's good for

13:13

underwriting attorneys if there's

13:15

subsequent real estate transactions 

13:17

a lot of times our clients might come to

13:19

us after a disaster and say i've been in

13:20

this house 40 years

13:22

i don't want to be flooded again i'm

13:24

getting bought out i want to sell it

13:26

and they come to us when they're already

13:27

in the closing process and the

13:28

underwriting attorneys

13:30

at the title company have said hey

13:32

there's a gap

13:33

in chain and title we're going to need

13:34

you to go ahead and execute this

13:35

document

13:36

they might have a form already they

13:38

might want us to use a different form so

13:39

our clients will come to us at that

13:40

point we'll say sure

13:41

let's clear up the chain so you can go

13:43

ahead and either you know

13:45

sell it in the buyout program or sell it

13:47

to a private party or you know

13:48

sell it to a realtor or something like

13:50

that so they might come to us at

13:52

different times usually it's you know

13:53

post-disaster

13:54

and they want that direct financial

13:56

assistance please help me show ownership

13:58

nobody had a will and again it's if you

14:00

didn't have a will

14:02

and there's no debts one piece of

14:04

property is what we're talking about

14:05

so  stuart did you have a

14:09

question yeah  you spoke we spoke

14:12

yesterday and you spoke about how

14:14

there may be a misconception among the

14:16

private bar or maybe

14:18

some malincentives that 

14:21

can can maybe  make some attorneys

14:24

want to drag things out

14:25

but  can you speak to like how

14:28

quick this process might be and and and

14:31

compare the process of affidavit of

14:33

heirship versus

14:34

a typical administration  and in the

14:37

benefits of that for

14:38

our client base and when you're talking

14:40

about

14:41

all of this in the context of

14:44

post-disaster

14:45

that puts a sense of urgency on things

14:48

that

14:48

normally wouldn't exist  the only

14:51

other time you kind of see that sense of

14:52

urgency is like i said when somebody's

14:54

already in the closing process

14:55

and they're not wanting to miss out on a

14:57

sale they they're really excited about

14:58

that sale you know if you weren't

15:00

post that post disaster but when you are

15:03

when you are considering the fact that

15:05

there are limited resources either at

15:07

the federal level

15:08

state level or or  you know private

15:10

donor dollars

15:11

you know our clients are lining up and

15:12

they're competing for those dollars

15:14

so there's a sense of urgency to get

15:16

these documents done as quickly as

15:17

possible

15:18

 for some programs if they will and

15:21

that's always

15:22

the starting point what program is your

15:24

client trying to qualify for

15:26

if it's FEMA money that's a little bit

15:28

different than you know a brand new home

15:30

with a

15:31

private donor maybe with money from you

15:33

know

15:34

rebuild texas or something like that or

15:37

you know mennonites disaster services

15:38

out of ohio so first of all you're going

15:40

to look and see

15:41

what kind of assistance your clients

15:43

applying for and then what will be

15:44

accepted if an

15:45

affidavit of heirship will be accepted

15:47

with a fractional ownership interest and

15:49

there's heirs that would be willing to

15:51

Gift deed the portion and make our client the

15:53

100%  owner

15:54

the affidavit of heirship if you can get

15:56

a

15:56

15:57

good legal description and get a good

15:59

family history i mean you could wrap

16:00

that up within

16:02

a week two weeks you know if the

16:04

information's there

16:06

if the client has the information

16:07

readily available  if clients don't

16:10

have the information readily available

16:11

and you have to do some digging around

16:12

through public records

16:14

you know it could maybe stretch out

16:15

closer to 30 days but

16:18

in the back of your mind you're knowing

16:19

that there's a deadline that there's

16:21

some

16:22

resources that they don't want to go to

16:23

the back of a wait list

16:25

or that you know literally there's a

16:27

construction crew at their home

16:29

and if they can show this affidavit of

16:30

heirship and show that they have some

16:32

kind of right in that home

16:33

then they can go ahead and get started

16:35

on repairs and whatnot so if

16:37

if we had any  private attorneys

16:39

wanting to help with some of these cases

16:40

there are affidavit of heirship cases

16:42

that can be done relatively quickly

16:44

and put our clients in a in an excellent

16:46

position

16:47

with what we some of us would consider a

16:49

relatively simple document but for our

16:50

clients it's really not we just have to

16:52

step them through the process

16:53

help them get it executed and whatnot

16:55

some of our cases are a little bit more

16:57

complicated they might require

16:58

you know say there is a will say there

17:00

is some debt there's some other assets

17:02

 you know muniment of title i've

17:05

done

17:06

relatively straightforward probate cases

17:09

in in as little as

17:10

30 days maybe 45 days and that's just a

17:12

docketing issue you know there's

17:14

there's requirements to how long you

17:15

know the notice has to sit at the at the

17:17

county courthouse and then as soon as

17:19

you can get in

17:20

and you will notice i think pablo could

17:23

speak to this too is just you know after

17:24

a disaster the counties

17:26

a lot of our county clerks were

17:27

devastated through the disaster

17:29

but even so they were so accommodating

17:31

to our clients because we're all in it

17:33

together i had damage to my private law

17:34

firm before i

17:35

you know joined trla my parents house

17:38

was heavily damaged 

17:40

the county clerk herself might you know

17:43

be living in an rv because her house was

17:44

damaged so i mean

17:45

really the courts kept trying to keep

17:46

moving like they are through COVID what

17:48

can we do

17:49

to you know ensure access to justice and

17:51

and how can we get people in so you will

17:52

find that the county clerks and the

17:53

county judges district courts everybody

17:55

after disaster

17:56

really does try to move these matters

17:58

along so you know if it wasn't disaster

18:01

based things might drag out a little bit

18:02

longer but i found that they've kind of

18:03

let me go to the front of the line

18:05

and some of the state agencies will put

18:06

our clients at the forefront

18:09

 so that we can move things as quickly

18:11

as possible so

18:15

 and dina actually there's a

18:17

commentary that you

18:18

will mention once in a while here you

18:20

know in the podcast that

18:22

part of the recovery process involves

18:24

the attorneys and 

18:25

those of us you know those who might be

18:27

listening to the pro bono side

18:29

 they always kind of what i want to

18:30

Volunteer when i put their names forward and

18:31

we want to do these podcasts on this

18:32

website so you know you can choose a

18:34

place where you'll be comfortable doing

18:35

this work but

18:36

if you get a case and it's complicated

18:38

on the probate matter

18:39

we assure our pro bonos i'm sure you can

18:41

add to this that we provide them

18:42

resources and answer questions

18:44

if they have any

absolutely  anytime we

18:46

have somebody who's willing to take on a

18:48

case i try to give them

18:49

as much information on the front end as

18:51

possible so that can give them an

18:52

informed decision is this the case that

18:54

they can fit into their current case

18:55

load

18:56

do they feel comfortable professionally

18:58

and ethically handling it

19:00

i try to give them the good bad and ugly

19:02

and then obviously i want

19:04

them to know why it's so important to

19:06

the client if if you can't take this

19:08

case on my caseload

19:10

might not you know allow me to take it

19:12

and they're gonna

19:13

they're gonna miss out on a new home

19:15

they're gonna miss out on repairs

19:16

they've been living in a at a

19:18

you know third world conditions for

19:20

three years since harvey you know

19:21

there's always the humanitarian

19:23

aspect to it  but i always want the

19:26

lawyers to feel comfortable that are

19:27

volunteering with us and for me i

19:29

i'm forever trying to recruit people

19:31

here locally well i work in very small

19:33

counties very small towns these are

19:34

people that my kids go to school with

19:37

people that i see every day so i'm

19:38

certainly not wanting to hide the ball

19:41

and anything with a case i'll tell them

19:42

hey not all of our cases are pretty

19:44

they're complex but i mean we're lawyers

19:45

that's what we do

19:46

disaster work probate work there's

19:48

trauma there's death

19:49

 you know there's always going to be

19:51

twists and turns and whatnot but i know

19:52

that when we place cases we absolutely

19:54

try to

19:55

give them everything they need to know

19:56

in any kind of support call me if you

19:58

need help get in touch with the client

19:59

you need me to

20:00

facilitate getting documents you need me

20:02

to text

20:04

you know whatever obviously things are a

20:05

little bit different with COVID and how

20:07

we handle some of those

20:08

 interactions with our clients we've

20:10

all had to learn how to do everything

20:11

remotely

20:12

but we're always there to offer this

20:13

support and i've

20:15

had several cases that have been placed

20:17

recently and it just always makes me

20:18

really happy to know

20:20

that there's you know there's volunteer

20:21

attorneys out there willing to take

20:22

cases on for us because these are

20:23

clients that might not otherwise have

20:25

had help in these title cases it

20:28

literally

20:28

can mean the difference between a roof

20:31

over your head or

20:32

some of our clients have brand new

20:36

beautiful up-to-date up-to-code homes

20:38

that they've never lived in

20:39

ever there's a neighborhood

20:42

in victoria county the long-term

20:44

recovery group put together

20:46

a neighborhood with a bunch of different

20:47

funders and community partners and they

20:50

built 40

20:51

brand new homes for harvey survivors

20:53

these are

20:54

beautiful homes ada compliant and

20:57

and for our clients you know we probably

20:59

have about

21:00

10 or 15 clients in those homes title

21:03

work was the difference between them

21:05

getting a new home or not

21:06

then some of them being homeless or not

21:08

are some of them living on a family

21:09

member's couch for

21:10

another two years or not so that's

21:12

that's how serious the title work

21:14

is and so i mean i always think that's a

21:15

really good feel good

21:17

point you know if the attorneys need any

21:18

extra motivation for taking a case

21:20

really a couple hours days maybe a month

21:24

out of your

21:24

practice you know putting it in with

21:25

your other cases and clients i mean the

21:27

trade-off

21:28

of knowing that the good work that

21:29

you're doing and how serious it is and

21:30

how you know how much it 

21:32

assists our clients always think is a

21:33

good good reminder

21:37

and that is a good reminder because for a lot of our

21:39

clients being able to come to us

21:41

is life-changing for them 

21:45

just earlier on you did mention a small

21:47

estate affidavit and a muniment of 

21:49

title

21:50

 could you just go into you know

21:52

briefly a little bit of

21:53

the difference between them sure once

21:56

you move on past affidavits of heirship

21:58

you know before any of the probate work

22:01

it

22:01

still could be as simple as a deed we

22:04

have one client

22:06

 you know that maybe they know who the

22:08

owner is and the owner's willing to deed

22:10

over the house and there is

22:11

no probate work that needs to be done

22:13

you know it's a it's a family member so

22:14

in a family member situation it might

22:16

just be a gift deed

22:17

between family members it might be a

22:19

non-family situation where it's a

22:21

special warranty deed so

22:23

so outside of any and all probate

22:24

matters it could be as simple as

22:26

preparing a deed and transferring that

22:29

interest over i've had some that are

22:30

that simple

22:32

i don't often use

22:36

small estate affidavits

22:39

they just don't ever really seem to

22:41

cover

22:42

what we need them to cover you know so

22:46

so i can't really speak to those too

22:47

much it's just whenever you go through

22:49

the uh

22:49

the different flow chart of the the

22:51

various things that have to do with

22:53

title

22:53

small estate affidavits are

22:55

just not necessarily ever going to get

22:57

you there in my opinion they might work

22:59

for other people for other reasons maybe

23:00

to get

23:01

some money out of a bank account but

23:03

when it comes to title i i

23:04

i don't even consider them most the time

23:07

because that's not what our clients need

23:09

moving on into something 

23:12

different you might uh

23:16

you know we talked earlier about RVs and

23:18

manufactured homes

23:20

it might not be a probate process it

23:22

might not be

23:23

that it might be something that's titled

23:24

more closely to either a

23:26

car title is which recreational vehicles

23:28

RVs are titled as

23:30

so you're looking at going through the

23:31

process as if you were trying to clear

23:33

up title

23:34

to you know the car you drive  if it's

23:37

been financed

23:38

you know it has to be paid off because

23:40

the bank's holding holding the title

23:41

like it would be a car if you had

23:42

financed a car through a lien holder

23:44

 it might only be salvage title

23:47

because you know there's no way that it

23:48

could be repaired or it's too old

23:50

that's if you're talking about

23:51

recreational vehicles the title work

23:52

that you would do for recreational

23:54

vehicles is like what you would do for

23:55

an automobile

23:56

tax assessor office in your county would

23:59

be the ones that you know have those

24:00

forms and it's still

24:02

gathering information talking to who had

24:03

the title what we find for our clients

24:05

sometimes

24:06

is they have been  they've been had a

24:10

lot of times they're desperate

24:12

they need a roof over their heads they

24:14

buy something that seemed like a good

24:15

deal at the time

24:17

and somebody tells them i'll give you

24:18

title you know

24:20

when i deliver it oh i don't have it

24:21

with me i don't have it or they have

24:23

title that hasn't been

24:24

properly transferred in about two or

24:26

three transactions or they might have

24:28

bought and sold it without a title

24:29

you know and people sometimes they know

24:32

better and sometimes they don't but when

24:33

you're talking about a roof over your

24:34

head versus a piece of paper at the time

24:37

it doesn't seem that important post

24:39

disaster that's when the sense of

24:40

urgency comes in if now you don't have

24:42

that document that you need to show

24:43

somebody to get assistance so

24:45

you have that and then when you're

24:46

talking about manufacturing homes

24:48

statement of ownership so again

24:50

manufacturing homes might be bought and

24:52

sold several times and nobody ever had

24:54

the correct documentation or the home is

24:56

so old and the documentation that was

24:58

required in the 70s

24:59

is not what's required now that's a

25:02

really 

25:03

sometimes that can be a really quick

25:05

process it can be a matter of i had a

25:06

contract for deed i had a bill a sale

25:10

i execute an affidavit on behalf of my

25:12

client they tell me the facts

25:14

you know we get a letter or a signature

25:16

from the seller

25:17

i mean that can be a really quick

25:18

process that all goes through the texas

25:20

department of housing and community

25:21

affairs

25:22

manufactured housing divisions a very

25:24

long acronym

25:25

tdhca mhd in austin

25:29

they've been for our harvey clients

25:31

they've been wonderful to work with

25:33

they've pushed our applications for

25:35

title up to the front

25:36

 fees were waived after harvey you

25:39

know if you're

25:40

if your client's a harvey survivor you

25:42

can ask for those fees to be waived

25:44

 again that's allowing the attorney or

25:47

the advocates and especially pablo now

25:48

we're talking about earlier 

25:50

law students it gives them a chance to

25:52

do a you know a really thorough

25:54

investigation

25:55

who owned the home where was the home

25:57

located when was the home moved

25:59

and then putting together those

26:00

affidavits and all of that documentation

26:03

you can't find the seller the seller

26:04

doesn't want to sign off on it for

26:06

whatever reason because they feel guilty

26:08

because they never had clear title you

26:10

send certified letters you send proof

26:12

that you mailed those certified letters

26:13

if you can build your paper trail

26:15

that is enough i mean i've had clients

26:18

be awarded title

26:19

when the sellers were in absolute

26:21

opposition but we could prove that our

26:22

client

26:23

had bought the home they had a receipt

26:25

for every payment over the past

26:26

four years and and they had a right to

26:28

the home and again it's

26:30

that sense of urgency after a disaster

26:33

our clients waiting for repairs

26:35

the roof is ripped off they need to redo

26:37

the electrical and they don't have the

26:39

money for those repairs there's somebody

26:41

willing to pay for it for them if it's

26:42

not FEMA than a volunteer group

26:44

but you have to have that piece of paper

26:46

in hand saying i have a right to be in

26:48

this house

26:49

i own this house any money that you put

26:51

into this house is going to benefit me

26:53

 and i'm you know i'm here legally and

26:54

lawfully so 

26:56

you know you go back to probate

26:58

procedures muniment of title if you're

27:01

doing 

27:01

a type of you know judicial probate

27:04

that's going to be your quickest

27:06

quickest one you know you don't have to

27:07

do an inventory all you're talking about

27:09

is just

27:10

when you offer a will for probate as a

27:12

Muniment of title it literally is

27:14

just a transfer title to that real

27:16

property there's

27:17

nothing else going on that needs

27:18

administering okay so those are going to

27:20

move through pretty quickly

27:22

there might be a will with other assets

27:24

you're looking at if every if the

27:26

will's been

27:27

executed correctly if it's been you know

27:29

self-proved by affidavits and you're

27:31

looking at independent administration

27:34

that drags out a little bit longer but

27:37

an independent administration with a

27:39

will

27:41

with you know everything you know

27:43

meeting all the statutory requirements

27:45

that is not necessarily a hard process

27:47

so for any of the

27:48

volunteer attorneys that do regular

27:50

probate work you know

27:52

they might do contested probate

27:54

litigation and

27:56

an independent administration for one of

27:57

our clients for a relatively

27:58

straightforward will

27:59

would be something that you know probate

28:01

attorneys could move through rather

28:03

quickly

28:04

 it might be  you know a welcome

28:06

respite from some of their other more

28:08

difficult cases

28:09

and then knowing that it's going to have

28:10

such a big payoff for our clients

28:12

 you know sometimes it's just a matter

28:15

of of

28:16

you know walking into court with them

28:18

showing up doing the inventory doing

28:20

that you know

28:21

be willing to put your name on it

28:22

willing to put yourself on the line and

28:24

help the client through it

28:25

 for probate attorneys that are just

28:28

starting out again like pablo

28:30

talked about earlier i mean we'd offer

28:31

them the support  if you've probated

28:34

one will

28:34

you've probated ten wills they can be

28:37

very complicated they can be very

28:39

 simple i mean it just really depends

28:41

but you know if you have the support

28:42

there it's something that

28:44

 probate is one of those areas

28:46

that eventually somebody's gonna

28:48

somebody's gonna come up against a

28:49

probate case i mean we all die it's like

28:51

death and taxes i mean there's gonna be

28:53

wills there's gonna be probate  you

28:55

know i think any attorney

28:57

eventually would you know even just for

28:59

their own knowledge

29:01

give a probate case a try i mean it's

29:03

going to be a part of everybody's life

29:04

at some point 

29:06

and then if you're talking about

29:07

something more complicated

29:10

we can't do an affidavit of heirship

29:11

there was no will but we still need to

29:13

determine who the heirs were you're

29:15

looking at an application to determine

29:17

heirship an actual

29:18

you know court court ordered 

29:21

determination of who the heirs are and

29:23

then the heirs can get together and

29:24

there's something in the estates code

29:26

that allows you to do an independent

29:27

administration

29:29

by agreement of the heirs so we don't

29:31

have to do this big long complicated

29:32

drawn out expensive

29:34

dependent administration if the heirs

29:35

can get together

29:37

they can ask the court for that

29:38

independent court created independent

29:41

administration

29:42

sometimes when we're working with a

29:44

client and there's fractional owners

29:46

there might have been bad blood between

29:48

family members or different generations

29:51

but once the attorneys talk to some of

29:53

the co-owners and say look

29:56

this family member of yours has lived in

29:57

this home for many years

29:59

they've paid the taxes they've paid

30:01

upkeep

30:02

they've done all these things to this

30:03

home you're still a fractional owner

30:06

and if this home has repairs done to it

30:08

or if it's brought up to code

30:10

you know your asset is appreciating also

30:12

your 25%

30:14

interest is now going to be worth more

30:16

so sometimes it just takes explaining

30:18

people to them look nobody's trying to

30:19

take the house from you if you don't

30:20

want to deed your portion over

30:21

if you want to keep your 25% that's fine

30:23

you you let her live there all these

30:25

years

30:26

you know you can and most people with a

30:28

fractional interest it's usually the

30:29

person our client that's living in the

30:30

home that has paid

30:32

for everything you know nobody else has

30:33

ever contributed to

30:35

property taxes or upkeep but when you

30:37

talk to the other heirs sometimes they

30:38

will get on board okay i'll

30:40

sign off on this affidavit or i'll sign

30:42

off on this gift you know it seems right

30:45

or hey that's fine i'm not going to

30:46

contest independent administration by

30:48

agreement because ultimately

30:50

if the home is being repaired their

30:53

asset is appreciating no matter what

30:54

what portion they own of it so

30:58

yeah i've had to explain that to a

31:00

couple people it's like if she never

31:01

gets

31:02

he or she never gets the recovery funds

31:03

to repair the house

31:05

It’s either they're going to be sold to a

31:07

house flipper or the city's just going

31:09

to

31:09

probably demolish it or buy it out

31:11

exactly you've got nothing

31:13

yeah nobody wins if we don't kind of

31:15

work together to try to do what we can

31:16

you're right to improve the home

31:19

absolutely

31:22

and just a bit back on manufactured

31:25

homes

31:26

a lot of our clients live in trailers

31:30

RVs

31:31

 other similar things and

31:34

that's a big part i know that may sound

31:36

a little scary for some of our attorneys

31:38

out there i know when i first came to

31:40

lone star

31:41

they were like you have to transfer

31:42

title for a trailer i'm like uh what

31:45

and then having to learn the very basics

31:47

of yeah they don't exactly

31:49

have a title it's this whole different

31:51

process

31:52

but yeah thankfully yeah

31:56

my department was great in helping me

31:57

through that giving me the information

32:00

hooking me up to the tdhca website

32:03

which is wonderful because you can find

32:05

the application what qualifies for a

32:07

Bill of sale

32:08

where to find the texas seal yes i've

32:12

crawled under a couple of trailer homes

32:14

to find that seal

32:15

i i have been known to have my cell

32:17

phone out taking pictures

32:18

all over places under the under the sink

32:22

in the closet electrical box

32:25

i think i think it's a rite of passage

32:27

for all legal aid attorneys to look for

32:29

that seal or that you know

32:30

serial id for whether it be for a

32:32

divorce or transfer or something you've

32:33

got to do it in a mobile home

32:35

i know exactly where they're  where to look

32:36

It usually requires me also petting a dog

32:38

saying it's okay

32:40

i can be here don't bite me it's fine

32:44

i have i have permission to be here yeah

32:46

been there too

32:48

absolutely now that website that website

32:50

is is fabulous it's very helpful

32:53

and sometimes if we can't place a case

32:55

with a volunteer attorney

32:57

or you know we are unable to take the

33:00

case on for various reasons say that you

33:01

know the client doesn't qualify

33:03

financially or whatnot

33:04

that website is really chock full with a

33:07

lot of self-help if somebody doesn't

33:08

have a complicated matter and or they

33:10

have somebody else to step them through

33:11

it

33:11

everything that anybody would need or

33:13

you know if we have volunteer attorneys

33:15

right now listening that

33:16

that somebody walks in their office next

33:18

week and says hey i really need help

33:19

transfer and title my manufactured home

33:22

i'm in line for us they might not have

33:23

even ever called us and become one of

33:25

our clients and maybe those attorneys

33:26

would feel comfortable going to that

33:27

website

33:28

taking a look at it  i mean everything

33:32

you could possibly need is there

33:33

the applications the affidavits you can

33:35

search for existing tax liens you know

33:37

you have to make sure all those liens

33:38

are cleared up or somebody else that's

33:40

responsible has paid them

33:42

so the  title can be transferred

33:45

 if you email them they'll email you

33:48

right back

33:49

if you call them they'll call you right

33:50

back i've worked with the same

33:53

 person there for the past three years

33:55

they will email me or call me right away

33:56

and

33:57

and i have not run into an issue yet

34:00

where they

34:01

 they're not putting up any resistance

34:03

they're saying this is what i need in

34:04

order to help your client if you can get

34:06

me this document if you can

34:08

fill this gap of information if you can

34:11

do this and they will tell you they send

34:12

out what they call

34:13

r a i's request for additional

34:16

information

34:17

they will spell it out very clearly to

34:19

you and your client

34:21

we need this one additional thing we

34:23

need this covered  and it's usually in

34:25

the form of an affidavit

34:26

so you draft that affidavit for your

34:28

client you know hey read over this

34:30

is this what you want to say is this the

34:31

truth you're signing this

34:33

and and you know it can be that simple

34:35

34:36

you know it it those kind of cases the

34:40

more you do them

34:41

it's i would never call them easy cases

34:44

but it gets a little bit easier you get

34:45

a little bit more comfortable

34:47

you kind of learn the tricks you get a

34:48

process of

34:50

you know you have all your documents

34:51

gathered up and you know what goes out

34:53

and what chronological order and what

34:55

you have to have in order to do that

34:56

we do have so many of our clients that

34:58

live in manufactured homes you know some

34:59

of the things we're talking about

35:00

title we talk about it in the context of

35:04

 you know direct assistance after

35:06

disaster they need money for repairs

35:09

but some of the side issues of not

35:11

having title for our clients that live

35:13

in manufactured homes you know i've

35:15

mentioned we were speaking yesterday

35:16

about the risk of eviction

35:18

okay so we have a disaster survivor

35:21

their home is in you know bad shape

35:25

they don't have money for repairs

35:26

they're trying to get FEMA to assist

35:28

them so we have we have that

35:30

part of it but then we have a seller or

35:33

maybe a landlord

35:34

in a contract you know i'd say contract

35:38

for sale sometimes it's not

35:39

that formal it it could just be a i gave

35:42

you 10 grand five years ago and i'll

35:43

give you another 10 grand and i'll give

35:45

you title or

35:46

our clients have completely paid

35:47

everything and they still haven't ever

35:50

turned over title right so anyway so

35:51

we're at this point it's post disaster

35:54

we have a seller who now has damage to

35:57

their primary residence

35:59

they never insured the manufactured home

36:02

for our client our client never thought

36:03

about it there's never any damage

36:05

so maybe the seller doesn't want to make

36:06

a claim on their insurance

36:08

for what they consider rental property

36:09

or you know a second home or whatever

36:11

that they've technically

36:12

sold to our client or they've had so

36:14

much damage to their home the seller has

36:16

so much damage in their home they don't

36:17

have any extra cash to put towards

36:19

making repairs on something that they

36:21

they haven't want to let title or

36:24

ownership go of yet but they certainly

36:26

don't want to put money into it you know

36:28

that's not my house after all so that

36:29

kind of thing so what i have run into

36:31

with some of my clients is we talk about

36:33

the risk of eviction

36:34

and we're talking about and this is

36:36

going to sound it's an ugly word but

36:38

we're talking about extortion

36:39

we're talking about clients who are this

36:41

close to paying something off

36:43

or it has been paid off disaster hits

36:46

they go to the seller hey i need you to

36:47

sign this application for transfer

36:49

statement of ownership

36:50

and the seller for whatever reason

36:54

especially after disaster says no you

36:55

owe me another five grand

36:57

you owe me another 10 grand i've never

36:59

charged you taxes

37:00

for insurance never part of any kind of

37:03

written

37:04

you know agreement if there was a

37:05

written agreement that wasn't included

37:07

you know so we have had cases where

37:09

clients have been

37:11

threatened with you know eviction pay up

37:14

or get out

37:15

after a disaster there's not really

37:17

anywhere to go

37:18

you know there's not affordable housing

37:20

just readily available in most of these

37:21

areas anyway

37:23

but now we have clients that are

37:24

desperate  and they're being

37:26

threatened with eviction

37:27

you know so that that's always an issue

37:29

right there financial exploitation yes

37:31

sir

37:32

oh please don't call me sir  most of

37:36

you don't know this actually we're

37:37

watching to see each other in the video

37:38

that's why DINa can see when i'm

37:39

asking the question here but you're only

37:41

hearing the voice cause like i told them

37:42

this is a face for podcasts

37:45

but step back a little bit here do you

37:48

know what you're saying like we are

37:49

showing this or giving this to FEMA

37:51

that literally actually is the FEMA

37:52

appeal within the FEMA appeal is the

37:54

title clearing issue it might be the

37:55

only issue it might be a

37:57

an issue that gets you to the actual

37:59

matter that you're applying for

38:00

but that's what you that's actually

38:02

doing a FEMA appeal to explain to the

38:04

FEMA agency

38:05

the title and why this person owns this

38:07

so they can actually

38:08

absolutely so any of this information

38:10

that you're gathering the clear title

38:12

is also stepping FEMA through it  you

38:14

know FEMA

38:15

might deny you because they again

38:18

FEMA or other other agencies anybody is

38:21

always going to say they have it in

38:22

their head

38:23

where's the deed even if it's not a deed

38:25

i don't have a deed to an rv

38:27

i don't have a deed to a manufactured

38:29

home you know what i mean they're always

38:30

going to ask for a deed and so a lot of

38:32

the work that we do as advocates and

38:33

volunteer attorneys would do is

38:35

explaining the difference between no

38:36

there was a will that was probated

38:38

a recreational vehicle is titled like a

38:40

car a manufactured home has a statement

38:42

of ownership there's not a deed but once

38:44

you've gathered all that information up

38:45

yeah if you're helping somebody with a

38:47

denial with FEMA you've put all that

38:49

information together it's going to be

38:50

very similar your affidavit

38:52

you know declaration of FEMA is going to

38:54

look very similar to your

38:55

affidavit statement of facts that goes

38:58

to tdhca

39:00

 you know we talk go back to FEMA real

39:03

quick pablo

39:04

uh FEMA has different standards you know

39:07

if we can't give them a traditional deed

39:09

we can maybe show them that affidavit of

39:11

heirship or FEMA has what's called an

39:13

owner-occupied standard

39:15

i don't have a deed i i will have my

39:17

attorney begin on affidavit of heirship

39:19

and that does help our FEMA clients

39:20

quite a bit if we can

39:22

if they can go to FEMA and say look i've

39:24

consulted with this private attorney

39:25

i've consulted with legal aid they're

39:26

working on the title clearing aspect for

39:29

me

39:30

you know for the long run for the next

39:32

disaster you know have everything

39:34

together for that

39:35

but at the time right all i can do is

39:37

own our occupied standard

39:39

so some of the title clearing for us is

39:40

as attorneys that help with FEMA appeals

39:43

it's a matter of showing FEMA that that

39:46

was their residence 

39:46

before the disaster they lived there

39:48

when the disaster struck

39:50

their voter registration card matches up

39:52

or their driver's license matches up

39:58

i just know i have a question  so

40:01

i have the benefit of being completely

40:03

ignorant about

40:04

all of this and so

40:10

and so  i was wondering so i i mean

40:12

just

40:13

to defend myself for just one second

40:15

from my own insult i don't do any of

40:17

this FEMA stuff

40:18

i mean i'm a housing attorney primarily

40:20

so whenever you started talking about

40:21

evictions in mobile homes and

40:23

and RVs that's that piqued my interest

40:25

but i want to back up to

40:27

what pablo was i think you guys both

40:29

touched on this earlier but

40:31

 for someone who might be a potential

40:35

volunteer attorney who's never dealt

40:36

with a FEMA case

40:38

 can you kind of just walk us through

40:40

the process of what that

40:43

is as truncated as you can make it

40:45

basically is what that might look like

40:46

for a client like from

40:48

from the from the moment of the of the

40:49

disaster to

40:52

assessing the damage to  the

40:55

application to FEMA and then the

40:56

potential denial and appeal

40:58

sure sure and know that that's its own

41:01

podcast so pablo gets to find somebody

41:05

to do that podcast because i you know

41:06

you could speak for hours on that for

41:08

sure but

41:08

for the volunteer attorneys that are out

41:10

there listening to it go on and on about

41:11

title clearing and

41:13

and all these different things 

41:15

disaster strikes

41:17

there's you know the immediate needs

41:18

after disaster you know

41:20

shelter food water safety your emergency

41:24

managers

41:25

 all of your county government people

41:27

there they are in charge of everything

41:28

they've

41:29

controlled the flow of who can come in

41:30

in the county who can go out of the

41:31

county can our clients even get back to

41:33

their home

41:34

or not were we under mandatory

41:35

evacuation what not so

41:38

eventually as it's safe people start

41:40

kind of filing back in

41:43

maybe they never left their house

41:44

they're still in their home FEMA will

41:46

eventually get here

41:47

they will set up a drc a disaster

41:49

recovery center

41:51

regionally there was one located in

41:53

victoria

41:54

to take in all the counties surrounding

41:55

victoria during harvey there was one

41:57

down in

41:58

rockport taking all those coastal bend

42:00

counties so

42:01

FEMA sets up the sba will be there

42:05

there will be disaster volunteer

42:07

attorneys through the aba there's

42:09

there's gonna be a bunch of partners

42:11

there so clients come in and they are

42:13

applying for

42:14

every single you know they're not our

42:15

clients yet they're all they're all

42:16

survivors

42:17

they're coming in they're applying for

42:19

help through the red cross through

42:21

different social services they want

42:23

assistance from FEMA

42:25

 you're going to FEMA for assistance

42:27

because your home was not insured

42:30

or it was underinsured for the most of

42:32

the clients that i'm talking about with

42:33

the volunteer attorneys that are helping

42:34

okay or

42:35

sba loans or whatnot it's and it's a

42:37

very long complicated process but i'm

42:38

trying to trying to make it

42:39

as short as possible so you have

42:41

somebody come in

42:43

they apply directly with FEMA they might

42:46

be approved

42:47

on the spot they have everything they

42:48

need but FEMA gives them a very very

42:51

small award that's not going to

42:52

do anything for them so they want to

42:54

appeal that award amount

42:56

or FEMA finds them ineligible because

42:58

they don't have a deed

43:00

a probated will an affidavit of heirship

43:03

so now they're wanting to appeal that

43:05

denial they've been declared ineligible

43:07

for whatever reason

43:08

so volunteer attorneys at that point can

43:11

step

43:12

in and either appeal the award amount or

43:14

appeal the denial

43:16

and again you'll see it all comes back

43:18

to what's considered title

43:20

 and and they might have some form of

43:22

title it's just getting

43:23

FEMA to understand where that fits into

43:26

their own regulations and rules

43:28

that yes this is what this means or this

43:29

is what we're talking about

43:31

or they don't have title but

43:35

an attorney has stepped in and you and i

43:37

all know that when a lawyer gets

43:39

involved it's it's

43:40

always better for our clients it is

43:42

always better just to have

43:44

an attorney on their side to help make

43:46

phone calls to help keep them on track

43:47

to help them guide their documents

43:49

in a post-disaster situation we might be

43:51

the only people with internet

43:53

or a cell phone that can help them you

43:55

know do the investigative part of it

43:57

so an attorney steps in  and then

44:00

we tell FEMA hey look they've talked to

44:02

an attorney they're working with an

44:03

attorney

44:04

we're getting this under control but in

44:05

the meantime we can prove that that

44:08

was their residence here's the

44:09

documentation

44:11

driver's license voter registration

44:14

utility bills

44:15

they own that home there's that

44:17

owner-occupied status that was talking

44:18

about it's not formal title but it's

44:20

owner-occupied status they've paid

44:22

property taxes for the past

44:24

10 20 30 years we can get you those

44:26

receipts

44:27

they've made maintenance to the home

44:29

they've done all these things that what

44:30

you would consider

44:32

an owner-occupied person would do we

44:34

gather all that documentation

44:36

we put that into an affidavit a

44:38

declaration we send that to FEMA

44:40

so for volunteer attorneys just helping

44:43

your client

44:44

you know pull together all that

44:45

documents you're talking about

44:46

traumatized people

44:48

that you know maybe their entire home

44:49

was destroyed they don't even have a dry

44:51

blanket or a dry

44:52

shirt so when you have an attorney step

44:54

in and we're able to kind of take

44:55

all of that paperwork and just just

44:59

stuff you know the stuff that we're used

45:00

to doing gathering all those documents

45:02

making copies of those documents

45:03

scanning those documents

45:04

putting them in a really concise 

45:08

you know order that steps FEMA through

45:10

you know why this person is not

45:12

ineligible

45:13

or why this person deserves a higher

45:15

reward in order to 

45:16

assist them in getting back on their

45:18

feet after disaster so an attorney can

45:20

make

45:21

a huge huge difference in those cases

45:23

and i would ask any of the people

45:25

listening

45:25

definitely  another disaster strikes

45:28

we know it will

45:29

it's not if it's when if anybody feels

45:31

like taking those cases on i mean FEMA

45:33

you know we all work out of the the same

45:36

set of standards for the individual

45:38

household program every time it gets

45:40

updated you know all the disaster

45:41

attorneys take a look at it i have mine

45:43

heavily

45:44

bookmarked but i mean you see the

45:46

standards you work with some of the same

45:47

types of cases over and over and over i

45:49

mean i

45:49

after harvey we were you know some of us

45:51

were doing 30 of those at a time maybe

45:53

40 of those at a time

45:54

but some of them are very similar so you

45:56

can crank them out but they

45:57

i mean they mean the difference between

45:58

a client having zero dollars and maybe

46:00

clients getting

46:02

ten thousand thirty thousand you know

46:04

there's a max

46:05

to what they can get but i mean it's

46:06

it's life-changing that money that they

46:09

can get and you will see that

46:11

FEMA will not normally grant

46:14

 an appeal if there's not somebody

46:17

else involved

46:18

i mean we've had clients that have tried

46:19

to appeal on their own multiple times

46:21

the first time an attorney gets involved

46:23

people take notice and and i'm not

46:25

saying that we have a 100

46:26

recovery rate but we have you know 

46:29

been able to have some success for our

46:30

clients and it really make a huge

46:31

difference in their life so yeah i would

46:32

always ask anybody hey

46:34

don't don't let it scare you and you get

46:35

them through the FEMA appeal process

46:37

you give them some money to get started

46:39

well they make the repairs that they can

46:40

make say maybe that initial

46:42

7-10 grand then there's private 

46:45

donor money

46:46

so then so my clients that were able to

46:47

repair their home

46:49

i then have them in line for we're going

46:50

to do the title work we're going to get

46:52

you that deed we're going to probate

46:53

that will we're going to do whatever we

46:54

need to get you that statement of

46:55

ownership

46:56

you don't get to apply for a brand new

46:58

home you get to move your entire family

47:00

into a

47:01

brand new home i mean some of my clients

47:03

i stayed with them even when the initial

47:05

was done

47:06

and then they might have had five or six

47:08

shoot-off cases and they might have been

47:09

my client and i'm not

47:10

trying to scare anybody away you know

47:11

longevity but they might have been my

47:13

client for two or three years

47:14

and i saw them from day after harvey

47:18

all the way to now we're we're three

47:21

years in and some of them you know it's

47:22

been a really complete

47:23

complete recovery now those are the

47:25

cases that i like 

47:26

working on things as we go with them you

47:29

do see that a lot

47:30

sometimes of most of our clients if they

47:32

have one issue there's usually about two

47:34

or three more in the background they didn’t know they had

47:38

and just do some shameless plugging

47:39

right now if you're

47:41

interested in a more in-depth analysis

47:43

of FEMA and FEMA appeals

47:44

i encourage you to listen to our

47:46

disaster recovery episode with disaster

47:48

attorneys

47:50

chase porter and christina brown awesome

47:53

that's available as well on our hosting

47:55

site buzz sprout

47:56

and we do have copies of the audio

47:59

available

48:00

on the texas disaster legal help website

48:02

in our knowledge resource library

48:04

and that website is

48:09

texasdisasterlegalhelp.simplejustice.org

48:11

and encourage everyone to check it out

48:13

it's an online resource for pro bono

48:15

attorneys

48:15

you sign up to volunteer with us and you

48:18

have access

48:19

to mentorship live chat and a lot of the

48:23

templates like

48:24

we have small estate affidavit templates

48:26

which i agree with

48:27

dina i've never used we have the

48:29

templates for the affidavit of heirship

48:31

we can walk you through a muniment of

48:32

title so

48:34

anyone out there listening and wants to

48:36

help you know

48:38

someone told me once pro bono hours are

48:40

billable hours for the soul and i've

48:42

never forgotten that

48:43

absolutely no truer statement for sure

48:46

when i always tell them what i do for a

48:48

living and say i'm trying to get myself

48:49

out of purgatory as a legal aid attorney

48:55

so let me ask you dina is it your

48:57

experience then i mean because it's this

48:58

is very state specific law right 

49:01

probate real estate  it's your

49:03

experience and when FEMA then

49:04

sees that an attorney is involved in

49:06

explaining it there's a certain

49:07

deference involved there because

49:09

 you practice in the state or are they

49:12

still going to be questioning the law

49:14

itself in the document itself and giving

49:15

you a hard time during the FEMA appeal

49:18

you know not not really i mean if you're

49:21

licensed in that state and in texas is

49:23

such a large state and there are so

49:26

many thousands of people affected by

49:28

harvey

49:29

i mean they really didn't put up a bunch

49:30

of state-specific resistance it was like

49:33

you know this is the law in the state of

49:34

texas these are the documents but

49:37

when an attorney is involved and is able

49:39

to speak with that kind of authority yes

49:40

FEMA does have to take notice because

49:42

we're telling them

49:44

you know look what what worked for you

49:46

on the east coast or in that hurricane

49:48

and what they call it in

49:49

the carolinas is not what we call it

49:52

here it is comparable to what we have

49:54

here and so you know when an attorney's

49:57

involved and they're able to tell the

49:58

people at FEMA that then yes

49:59

FEMA is definitely more receptive and i

50:01

think our clients are ultimately more

50:02

successful

50:03

 but i think you know they are willing

50:07

to

50:08

i think they are willing to work with

50:09

the client 

50:12

a little bit more whenever there's an

50:13

attorney involved i mean i mean i think

50:14

that's just you know all cases

50:16

period when it comes to pro se versus

50:19

having an attorney involved

50:20

 you know they kind of have to follow

50:22

their own rules a little bit more we

50:23

hope that they will but

50:25

i don't find it to be as state specific

50:27

as long as you know your stuff and you

50:28

just tell them no this is what that's

50:29

called here

50:30

and this is what works for title so you

50:32

will and a lot of times you know FEMA

50:34

you know they're going to have their

50:35

volunteer liaisons they're going to be

50:37

really plugged in with the locals you

50:38

know i attended long-term recovery

50:41

meetings daily then weekly now i do it

50:44

you know bi-monthly

50:46

but we're going to have a a county judge

50:48

there or we're going to have

50:49

the mayor there and you're going to have

50:50

somebody from FEMA and if you are

50:52

involved as an advocate and you attend

50:54

those things

50:55

you know the FEMA people take notice

50:56

they're like oh well you know there's

50:58

miss hardwick from trla and

51:00

she's been going on and on about

51:01

affidavits of heirship are sufficient

51:04

and the mayor of the county judge hasn't

51:05

shut her down yet she must she must be

51:07

telling the truth or whatever

51:08

just wear them down yeah so you know

51:11

those working relationships you know

51:12

when when you've done enough work with

51:14

people and they can trust you know

51:15

tdcha i send them i send them documents

51:18

now they don't even question them three

51:19

years later they know that i have always

51:21

been

51:22

above board i've always been

51:23

professional i've always been ethical if

51:25

i tell you i've done this and i've shown

51:26

you i've done it

51:27

i've done it and now i mean i get

51:29

results with them

51:30

minutes hours days as opposed to sitting

51:33

in line

51:33

a month that's a working relationship

51:35

and we all have to work really hard to

51:36

protect our reputation so that people

51:38

you know want to help our clients

51:40

because they trust that we've done

51:41

what we're supposed to do so what 

51:44

correct me if i'm wrong but

51:46

what i'm hearing from someone who's

51:48

never had to do

51:49

with FEMA before but who's been

51:52

involved in different administrative law

51:54

type of procedures and hearings and

51:57

whatnot

51:58

it sounds like there's a lot of

51:59

transferable skills it sounds like

52:01

obviously probate attorneys you'd be

52:02

able to pull them in but

52:04

to me even maybe tax attorneys or

52:07

unemployment

52:08

attorneys or immigration attorneys or

52:10

social security attorneys

52:11

it sounds like a skill that would be

52:13

transferable to someone who has

52:15

that type of experience is that right no

52:17

absolutely you know you're dealing with

52:19

administrative law for sure

52:21

 if anybody's ever done any kind of

52:23

like administrative law reviews at the

52:25

state level

52:26

you've ever done you know for even our

52:27

criminal defense attorneys if they've

52:29

ever defended a driver's license

52:30

suspension related to a dwi

52:32

the processes are very similar in any

52:34

kind of admin law

52:35

tax attorneys are great you know 

52:38

something i didn't get a chance to touch

52:40

on real quick and i'll just touch on

52:41

briefly and y'all might even have a

52:42

podcast for this but

52:43

when you talk about getting a client

52:45

title and i was talking to belinda about

52:47

you know kind of the holistic approach

52:49

we've gotten their home repaired

52:51

they now have title to their home can we

52:53

do estate planning documents for them so

52:55

now

52:55

the next generations can have this home

52:57

protected and move on down the line

52:59

community education what can you do to

53:01

clear title now before disaster

53:03

are you getting all the tax exemptions

53:06

you're qualified for

53:07

you know when we go ahead and clear tile

53:09

for a client the first thing we do is

53:10

help them fill out those tax exemptions

53:12

they can now most of them do they're

53:13

over 65 they can do their homestead

53:15

they might have been living in a

53:16

property and claiming a homestead and a

53:18

family member who

53:20

homestead it was has passed away now

53:21

there's back taxes can we help them

53:24

work out a payment plan can we get some

53:26

of those taxes taken away

53:28

 but of course you know our clients

53:29

are already on limited income

53:31

and they're missing out on those tax

53:32

benefits you know they're struggling to

53:35

pay their property taxes every year

53:37

but for clear title and a homestead

53:39

exemption or a deferral or

53:41

you know something like that so tax

53:42

attorneys volunteer tax attorneys are

53:44

great i mean all of these

53:46

all of these title issues have so many

53:47

offshoots we talked about the risk of

53:49

eviction financial exploitation

53:51

 there's just so many different things

53:54

that once you can get into that title

53:56

work so yeah i mean i would say

53:58

any attorney anywhere that's graduated

54:00

from law school and past their bar

54:02

obviously has those skills to gather

54:04

information investigate the facts

54:07

client interviews some clients

54:10

of ours you know have been helped by

54:13

attorneys that work for very very large

54:15

law firms in the big cities that don't

54:16

have as much day-to-day interaction with

54:18

a real live

54:19

person they might be representing

54:21

corporations

54:22

overseas clients they haven't you know

54:24

i've had 

54:26

corporate attorneys that have never been

54:28

in a county court

54:29

law before certainly not in a little

54:31

bitty teeny tiny coastal town and they

54:33

go

54:34

wow yeah wow there's deputies and

54:37

there's

54:38

you know and the security is kind of

54:39

lacks in some places you know you go

54:40

probate a will

54:41

in harris county you know it's a

54:43

multi-story building there's lots of

54:45

security you go in some of the smaller

54:46

counties and

54:47

and literally the deputies just there

54:49

ready to

54:50

defend if he has to but there's

54:53

no pat downs there's no searches there's

54:55

no security

54:56

it's just a free-for-all yeah you know

54:58

there might be criminal defendants in

55:00

there sitting with you next to

55:01

you know elderly clients that are there

55:03

to probate a will so

55:05

you know and for some attorneys to kind

55:07

of get out of their comfort zone

55:09

or you know like i said have that

55:10

day-to-day action with a real you know

55:12

real life client and like i said it's an

55:13

immediate

55:15

benefit to what you do for our clients

55:17

yeah i have that same

55:19

similar experience uh down in webster i

55:21

was the only one in a suit and so

55:22

they're just like you're an attorney all

55:24

right of course that way

55:26

that was it i love it

55:30

what you said earlier yeah a lot of

55:33

the

55:34

importance is clearing their titles so

55:36

they can get those funds but yeah

55:37

setting up the next generation so they

55:39

we don't

55:39

run across the same problem because as

55:42

you said it's not

55:43

if there's another disaster it's when

55:44

there's another disaster so when the

55:46

next one rolls around

55:48

the next generation may have inherited

55:50

that house so i know

55:51

we always try to do a transfer on death

55:54

deed or

55:55

just something similar some sort of

55:57

estate planning out there and

55:58

yeah maybe familiar with the transfer of

56:00

death deed out there it's not

56:02

terribly well known but it basically

56:05

transfers title

56:06

automatically upon death it's a form you

56:09

fill out

56:10

you file with the real property upon the

56:13

death of the

56:14

owner it can transfer to whoever they

56:16

wish without the need for probate so

56:18

that is like gold for our clients who won’t probate

56:22

anyway yeah and when you talk about

56:24

being able to use the todd

56:26

you have to have that good legal

56:28

description and they have to have had

56:29

that deed

56:30

to move it on down so yeah once we've

56:31

done all this title cleaning work we've

56:33

now gotten our clients to the position

56:34

yes can we do a todd

56:36

and will that be much more economical

56:37

than setting them up for some kind of

56:39

probate that's not appropriate for

56:41

you know their assets and their estate

56:43

and what not  and then the community

56:45

ed

56:45

i mean anybody that will listen i will

56:47

go on and on to them about

56:49

do you have a will do you have a todd do

56:51

you do you have the deed in your home

56:52

there's gonna be another hurricane

56:53

there's always something brewing in the

56:55

gulf until

56:56

through october and you know three years

56:58

it's gone by but

57:00

you know if something that devastating

57:01

hits us again i would much rather our

57:03

clients be in

57:03

a better position or potential clients

57:06

or you know anybody

57:07

that estate planning so every time we do

57:09

one of those wills clinics jump on

57:11

board to help with those

57:12

the more wills and todd's we can crank

57:14

out pre-disaster

57:16

absolutely and then talking to people

57:17

about their tax exemptions and just

57:18

getting everything

57:19

just getting everything in order for the

57:21

next generation sure

57:23

that's another thing a lot of people

57:24

don't realize some of the state and

57:26

local funding you have to be caught up

57:28

on your taxes

57:29

before you qualify for a lot of those

57:31

funds so any back taxes you're

57:34

out of the gate so yeah exemptions and

57:36

sometimes the deferrals

57:38

can help them access those funds  

57:41

back child support

57:41

we talked about the medicaid estate

57:43

recovery any kind of financial

57:45

thing so when when stuart's asking

57:47

about other attorneys family law

57:49

attorneys bankruptcy attorneys i mean

57:51

really they're the carry over and within

57:54

trla you know i'm sure with you guys

57:56

when we

57:57

place these cases or with volunteers you

57:59

obviously try to look to somebody that

58:00

has a background in that or what they're

58:02

professionally comfortable with but

58:03

there is support i mean

58:05

if you've practiced some really complex

58:07

litigation or complex cases or you know

58:09

just been practicing for any amount of

58:10

time

58:12

you know step off into it if you need

58:14

assistance ask for assistance it's like

58:15

any new attorney taking a case you

58:17

find a mentor get a mentor we'll mentor

58:20

you i'll volunteer pablo to mentor

58:22

thank you so much yeah i have enough

58:25

time you know with homeschooling and

58:27

other stuff why not do that

58:29

exactly exactly but

58:33

we never want to discourage anybody from

58:35

taking on some of these cases that they

58:36

can

58:37

so and i know people probably think i'm

58:39

i'm pollyanna about it but truly i mean

58:42

we do

58:42

make such a difference in our clients

58:44

lives and we take on those cases this

58:46

week

58:47

i have been simultaneously drafting an

58:50

affidavit of heirship

58:51

and a special warranty deed all related

58:54

to defending

58:55

against an eviction because title is at

58:59

issue

59:00

and then also talking to the client

59:02

about the

59:03

buy out through the general land office

59:04

because she's a harvey survivor and

59:07

she's in the floodplain

59:09

so it's been one of those weeks where

59:12

the housing team said hey there's this

59:14

eviction case but it has all this other

59:16

stuff

59:17

that you'd be used to so multifaceted

59:20

for sure

59:22

Belinda any final points before we wind

59:24

down here we want to thank dina

59:26

anything else uh none of this time thank

59:29

you so much

59:30

being with us 

i got nothing but  i learned a

59:33

lot though

59:34

that was a lot definitely yeah and

59:36

listen  yeah i think you mentioned it

59:37

too

59:38

and it's very important you provide the

59:39

stability with these kind of cases to

59:41

have the person just move forward to the

59:42

next level there's so many issues that

59:44

come up

59:44

when disaster recovery so thank you for

59:46

providing us you know that little

59:48

important piece of information that

59:49

happens so often that people don't

59:51

realize how often

59:52

it happens in these cases dina

59:55

thank you

59:55

very informative uh thank you for having

59:57

left i know people caught this but she

59:58

left a successful private practice

60:00

For legal aid that's what she said you have

60:02

to an unsuccessful legal aid

60:05

yeah right yeah that comes around good

60:07

at raise time going you know

60:10

yeah right so thank you again we're all

60:12

So lucky to have you

60:14

yes i'm honored you guys asked me to do

60:16

this i appreciate it

60:17

okay then thank you all nice seeing

60:20

y'all y'all take it easy and uh keep an

60:22

eye out on the Gulf and see what happens

60:24

in their next

60:24

round of clients when they couldn't come

60:26

in for those pro bono volunteers

60:28

listening to this go to that 

60:29

website texaslegalhelp.simplejustice.org

60:34

and find out more resources like this

60:35

one