Texas Disaster Legal Help Podcast

Disasters and Evictions

Texas Disaster Legal Help Project Season 1 Episode 3

Join the Texas Disaster Legal Help team as they talk about the most recent evictions law related to disasters and the COVID-19 crisis.

Special guest speakers Fred Fuchs and Christina Trejo.

Visit our website at https://texasdisasterlegalhelp.org/


Music Credit:
Track: Travel With Us — Vendredi [Audio Library Release]
Music provided by Audio Library Plus
Watch: https://youtu.be/o-rpKzt4KSY Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/travel-us

Disasters and Evictions



Speakers:

Fred Fuchs (Texas RioGrande Legal Aid)

Belinda Martinez (Lone Star Legal Aid)

Christina Trejo (Texas RioGrande Legal Aid)

 (Recorded Sept. 18, 2020) 



Transcript


Hello folks out there my name is pablo

 

Almaguer and  i'm the director of private

 

bar and government relations

 

for texas rio grande legal aid licensed


 22 years worked at trla the entire time

here

 

we are here today because we have a

 

coordinated project between legal aid of


north west texas

 

lone star legal aid and texas rio grande

 

legal aid it's aimed at improving

 

access to justice for those affected by

 

disasters

 

our project allows both disaster

 

survivors and pro bono attorneys to

 

access

 

critical resources in one place while at

 

the same time making it easier to

 

connect disaster survivors needing help

 

with volunteer attorneys willing to

 

provide it

 

this is one of the podcasts you're going

 

to see at our specialized disaster

 

relief website

 

that you want to go to for assistance

 

and for other matters when you're doing

 

a pro bono case

 

the website is texas disaster legal help

 

dot o-r-g that's texas disaster legal

 

health dot o-r-g

 

introduction here we're going to

 

go ahead and start with our first

 

podcast here with a couple of folks but

 

before we go there i want you all to

 

meet the common voices and i guess faces

 

if you ever get to see us here

 

of these podcasts and you know from

 

other programs all together

 

we have belinda martinez here from a

 

staff attorney

 

of the disaster recovery unit at lone

 

star legal aid

 

she is an undergraduate graduate of

 

southern methodist university and

 

university of houston and law 

degree from south texas college of law

 

we also have stuart campbell from legal

 

aid of northwest texas and that rounds

 

off the representation of all three

 

legal aid programs here

 

stuart  is a legal aid of northwest texas

 

housing attorney since february

 

he sues landlords and defends against

 

evictions he's the youngest one here so

 

he probably knows more about zooming

 

than any of us here so when you might

 

once in a while stop and ask him

 

questions about that his undergrad is

 

oklahoma state university political

 

science degree

 

and law school texas a m school of law

 

With a focus on public policy and

 

public service

 

so that's the introduction here we're

 

going to go ahead and start 

 

with our first speaker here i guess

 

on the episode of eviction and


housing and go right to belinda the

 

person they introduced and then we're

 

gonna they're gonna introduce

 

other speakers in a few seconds belinda

 

take it away

 

thank you pablo 

 

first off, this episode is going to be about disasters  and how it affects landlord 

 

tenant relationships, primarily renters

 

as most of the listeners know parts of texas were hit by

 

hurricane lara and delta which required 

 

evacuations and caused some severe

 

property damage

 

thankfully those storms are now passed

 

and at the time of this recording hurricane season is wrapping up

 

you may have clients 

 

especially if you are already volunteering your time as a pro bono volunteer 

 

but you may also have other people come to you

 

asking for help on just various legal issues

 

insurance claims or getting fema

 

assistance

 

But they need to know  if they're renting their property

 

they're currently living in and had to

 

evacuate

 

they are potentially

 

at risk of not only losing their

 

belongings but also

 

their homes  let me go into some more detail

 

okay you have a client or just a person in front of you 

 

Who is a tenant and had to evacuate 

 

The first thing they need to do


 if they haven’t already is let the landlord know whether they

 

Intend to return or not. 

 

the reason for this is if the

 

landlord does not know the situation

 

 the landlord could

 

asse that they have abandoned 

 

and terminate the lease 

 

or a tenant could  be evicted

 

for non-payment of rent and owe months of back rent on a place they had

 

no intention of returning to

 

they can provide notice by 

 

providing giving the landlord updated contact information


including a phone nber email address

 

physical address if they have one and

 

they can do that by email text letter 

 

It just needs to get to the landlord 

 

And do it in such a way they have some proof that they did give that landlord notice 

 

The next issue is whether

 

renters should stay or go

 

and that’s going to boils down to

 

Whether or not the place is still livable

 

If  the place is unlivable the tenant can terminate the lease 

 

or the landlord can terminate the lease. 

 

and if the tenant and landlord are in agreement on that


then wonderful everyone walks away happy 

 

and generally we don't get called in on those cases. 

 

Usually we get called because there's some dispute between the tenant and the landlord

 

if the tenant wants to terminate

 

due to the place being uninhabitable 

 

 they have to give written notice to the landlord anytime 

 

before the repairs begin

 

And if they do that  they are

 

entitled to any rent already paid

 

and they get their security deposit back


When they move out. 


A lot of people don’t realize that

 

they are entitled to their security deposit 

 

flip side of that is

 

landlord wants to terminate 

 

And The tenant wishes to stay

 

That’s Going to depend on if the place has been condemned or

 

Otherwise been deemed uninhabitable 


If that is the case

 

then there's no issue unfortunately your

 

client's just going to have to leave, the renters is just going to have to leave. 

 

there’s nothing you can do at that point. 

 

there is also a section in the property code 92.055 


that covers the landlord closing the property

 

Even though it hasn’t been deemed uninhabitable

 

There is a bunch of rules and regulations on that 

 

So i do suggest if you find yourself in that situation check those rules

 

Because a lot of times the landlords do not 


close those properties correctly and 

 

your renter may have some rights and if they don’t do it properly 

 

you can possibly get your renter some damages, moving costs, etc 

 

So it’s worth at least looking at the code just to make sure 

 

the other issue is tenant wishes to stay

 

and the place is habitable 

 

first off it does has to be habitable, not just i can live there 

 

but actually habitable. And in that case  the tenant 

 

does have a right to ask for the

 

landlord for repairs

 

There is more information in the property code about how to go about doing that 


and it basically boils down to providing 


Proper notice and giving the landlord a

 

reasonable time to make those repairs

 

If you are asking for repairs always tell

 

your client that

 

rent is still due 

 

Pay your  rent

 

if they

 

do not pay rent the landlord

 

can evict them and their repair claim goes out the window. 

 

Also if they have asked for repairs they possibly could be entitled to a reduction

 

rent  it depends on how damaged  the property was

 

And that method is only available by court 

 

They will have to go into the jp

 

court and have a judge

 

to sign off on that. 

 

So to s up. Pay rent, but you might be able to get them a reduction. 

 

the other issues is when no repairs are made

 

you’ve sent the proper notice but the landlord is just whatever. 

 

 the court can order the repairs to

 

be done or the tenant can terminate the

 

lease and once again

 

they are entitled to any refund

 

of rent they have already paid and they do get their security deposit back.

 

One of the things on that security deposit 

 

Always provide the landlord a forwarding address

 

If you have to go to court to sue get back the security deposit 

 

your going to have to prove you gave a forwarding address.

 

And if you can get an agreement of the refund of rent or security deposit.

 

Sometimes the landlord will send an email stating yeah yeah yeah, i’ll return that

 

Most of the time they won’t but at least you asked.  

 

Just to wrap up my section


I’d like to end on a personal note


For those out there listening 


I highly encourage you to go to www.texasdisaserlegalhelp.org 


Or to the websites of one of the various legal aid agencies


When disasters like hurricanes hit 


Our agencies get overwhelmed


We simply don’t have enough people to cover the need out there


So any time you can spare is greatly appreciated 


And a lot of these cases aren’t very time consing


 Or terribly difficult 


I actually came to know Lone Star Legal Aid


Ended up volunteering with them


And later taking a job


Of a case on a  landlord trying to kick out 


Right after hurricane harvey


 Got a phone call from a friend of a friend


Her landlord had showed up at 10 a.m

 

At her place saying the place had been condemned 


by the fire marshall and they need to be out by 5pm

 

So of course she was frantic and got in touch with me


unfortunately i was doing

 

family law and estate planning so i had

 

no clue about landlord tenant issues 


so i did some research  


Came across lone star legal aid’s website


Since I’m here in Houston

 

And was able to get some information  


Out to her


And actually get in contact with


One of the attorneys at lone star


So i was able to get most of the information


I just told you to her so she knew her rights


She decided to go ahead and just move out   

 

But she give that information to the

 

other tenants 


And the attorney I was working with at lone

 

Star suggested I give a call to the fire marshall

 

To see what was going on

 

Called him he had never been out to that property


 He had no idea what the landlord was talking about 


From there i was able to get ahold of the landlord and explain


So with a simple phone call 


And a little bit of research I was able to keep a landlord from 


Unlawfully kicking out his tenants

 

So that was wonderful and made me


Want to volunteer more

 

So once again highly suggest


Check out our website www.texasdisasterlegalhelp.org


Or one of the other legal aid agencies websites


 Alright that’s enough of me


I’m going to hand it off to Stuart


Who is going to introduce our next guest 


And talk a little bit more about the CDC order


 On the federal moratori on eviction


Due to the COVID crisis


Stuart if you would


So our first part of the discussion that

 

we're going to have with our guests

 

today is going to be with fred fuchs who

 

is

 

a long time housing attorney at texas

 

rio grande legal aid he's also an

 

adjunct professor

 

at ut  austin school of law he teaches

 

a spring

 

housing clinic at ut austin and

 

i refer to him to other housing

 

attorneys

 

as the housing guy basically if

 

as paulo said earlier if you don't know

 

fred and you're not doing housing

 

in texas he publishes some great

 

useful information once a year and and

 

gives it to us housing attorneys for

 

free and whenever i say some useful

 

information i'm not talking about

 

a leaflet i'm talking about like a

 

page doc

 

docent that comes through and updates

 

all the statutes both federal and

 

state and says this is the new law and


this is the new case laws 


invaluable resource  mr dukeson


one of probably the guru of


halligan public housing law in texas so


 with that i want i i guess


maybe we should let fred guide the


conversation


but i kind of want to talk about what's


going on in the news


in the housing news i should say 


across the united states


and that would be a cdc order  fred do


you want to kind of


tell us what's going on with that sure


absolutely and  i appreciate the


introduction by


an oklahoma state grant because this is


a


podcast you cannot see that he doesn't


have a mullet unlike


the coach


yes there has been much going on


in the housing world with respect to


evictions


and  essentially


what i'd like to begin with is to


emphasize that there


have been there's been a federal act


called the cares act that was enacted


march


 that has impacted evictions and


still is


then there's the center for disease


control or which


stewart reference which is the


cdcr issued by the center for disease


control


on september . we'll talk about that


and then last night on september or


yesterday evening on september


 the texas supreme court issued its


th


emergency order on the implementation


by the texas courts of the cdc order


so  i'm going to smarize


the cdc order in two or three


sentences and then throw a question or


two


out at stuart and christina 


in a nutshell the 


cdc order which is effective


through december  


prohibits landlords from


evicting a covered tenant covered tenant


is defined


under the order as someone who provides


the landlord with a declaration


signed under penalty of perjury


that either because of a loss of income


or extraordinary medical expenses


they're unable to  to pay the rent


and there's some exception and so if the


tenant provides that to the


lord it's supposed to stop the eviction


 process in its tracks  no matter


what time it's been provided and i guess


at this point


 that's a nutshell summary and we'll


come back to what the


supreme court said on implementation but


 i begin by asking 


stewart whether he has  since this was


enacted


 just recently september th seen any


 cases yet either from tenants who


 have been unaware of the order or


landlords who are trying to proceed


anyway  stewart have you seen anything


like that or


as your program so 


before i answer the question i do want


to say this is probably going to be one


of the few episodes that you hear my


voice


unfortunately more than  the speakers


i do this  i do housing stuff


almost exclusively in fort worth and


dallas 


and so this is the only area that i i


would consider myself qualified to speak


to like a public audience on


but  to answer your question fred yeah


in sure yes and we're seeing 


not only landlords actually increase


their filings certain types of landlords


are increasing their filings


 even after


receiving the cdc declaration from the


tenants


but we're seeing them


challenge it on constitutional levels in


in court


just recently this week i had a hearing


on


the constitutionality of the cdc order


in front of our our county court of law


here


 we don't have a decision yet so


unfortunately i don't have a 


news for the podcast today but


the judge is sitting on it and doing his


own research reading our


reading my motion and reading their


their trial brief the opposing side is


trial brief


 i do have got a feeling though after


this news of the


texas supreme court order hits he


probably is going to rule for us


 but yeah no we're seeing it


left and right from


landlords to either unaware or don't


that gets constitutional


or know about it but don't know enough


about it right we're getting a whole


bunch of confusion from landlords who


think that this is the same as the cares


act


or just an extension of the cares act


and it's not


and so  christina have you have you


seen


what are you seeing in san antonio on


landlords


in regards to the cdc order


well we're seeing the same thing and


that the filings have not slowed down


information like this sometimes be slow


to be spread


and we're fortunate in that our jps are


where our jps are following the


requirements when a declaration is filed


and we even have a couple that are


pretty proactive about it


and that they inform the entire


courtroom before he's starting


about what the order is and then can


there


that there are very stiff penalties for


landlords who ignore it


so yeah let me interject at this time


before you proceed and that is under


that new  supreme court order


the justices of peace will actually have


to


include in the citation served on tenant


notice about


the  cdc order and


attach a copy of the declaration for


tenants to sign


yeah just and so and it's we can hear


that


your justices and peace there even


without that supreme court are now have


been proactively inform intents about


the


cdc order yes it's great this is such a


weird time


you know and and you do house it it's


just a very odd time


because we have new things and then and


then


new defenses new ways to help tenants


and things keep on changing


so we're very fortunate i'm grateful to


be in bexar because


like i said our our jps are following


as things come out they're following the


roles and and the laws


so we're lucky here can i ask a question


of y'all i'm sorry to interrupt you real


quick but i mean


because i'm in south texas in the valley


we


sometimes have little difficulty with at


least the jps and


maybe having a uniform application of


this order


what do you all either one or three of


you all recommend how to approach


the jps when this is happening do you go


to the county attorney do you go to them


directly how do you advocate


on just uniformity and application of


that well let me just


say very quickly in response to that


pablo  that i know


our lawyers in the valley have had some


difficulties and


i had to seek tros from the county court


at law


to enforce the provisions of the


 of cares act for example  what i


recommend


is in in with respect to the cdc


order that applies at any time that the


tenant gives the


gives the declaration to the landlord


even post


judgment or even after the repossession


has been issued


if the tenant gives that declaration to


the landlord


at that point that's puts everything on


hold


and what we've seen in in


 some cases is where justice of


peace have raised questions about


whether


the cdc order will stop an eviction


after the judgment


is that referring the justice of the


peace


to the website of the justice court


training center


is really effective because it makes


very clear


on its  coronavirus


section of its website that the cdc


order applies


 prejudgment post judgment after the


issuance of the of the red and even


though justice of the peace may


sometimes be skeptical of us


as advocates we have found that if we


refer them or their staff


to the justice court treatment center


website  that is


that has been i know our advocates in


the in the


valley have used that  to their


advantage


 there now i don't know what 


stuart has seen in the fort worth dallas


area with respect


to the justices of the peace and


enforcement


of the cd sea art or the cares act


i can try to address that real quick 


basically it's


it's as insane as it's always been in


dfw


 when it comes to


this court's ruling on evictions 


there's no uniformity


we try our best to educate the judges as


most as possible i know that sounds kind


of pretentious but you kind of have to


especially with this kind of this type


of 


fast-paced changes that are happening to


something that's been kind of stacked 


in terms of its enforcement 


but what we're seeing is


largely a


for certain judges i wouldn't say


all but a good portion 


i just don't think that the cdc order


applies to pending cases that were


filed before september th and so


they're unwilling to abate it


 this is mostly the jp judges i think


we won over


the county courts of all judges and


persuaded them that it does apply


retroactively but


 but a lot of the justice courts are


still refusing to abate


 and enforcing our clients and our


applicants to appeal


and thus put up that one month's rent


out of pocket to


maintain possession of the property


during the appeal


even at the county even if they know at


the county court level the county court


law judge is


going to abate the judge or the  the


case


and so stuart can i make a real quick


clarification because our audience here


are going to be pro bono


right so now they're probably thinking


oh my gosh what am i doing here what am


i going to get into


 let's just kind of all three of


programs agree that we can tell them if


you get to this point you're having


problems with the judge


call us we'll do the advocacy we can


help you don't you know think that every


case you're going to get is going to


require you know appeals and all this


right right right  at least when it


comes to the land


i mean we


we guide our pro bono attorneys pretty


we hold their hands as much as possible


as much as they want to help we're we're


there as a resource and we almost never


give


them complicated cases  and so


if you're a pro bono attorney listen to


this which i hope there are some


that's the whole point of the podcast


please sign up to help folks


enforce their rights under the cdc order


under the cares act


under the the new supreme court


emergency order


and  it'll be a lot of fun because you


can pretty


pretty easily prevent a good chunk of


evictions


 fred do you can you speak to any


any negative experiences you've had or


your attorneys have had


in trying to enforce


or get a judge to enforce this order


whether or not it's from


an experience that comes from trying to


get the tenant educated about it


or trying to


deliver to the landlord or the landlord


contesting it or or as we've been


speaking about the


the judge just ignoring the the yes


just for briefly the the it's been most


problematic


in the valley where 


public practices and  advocates have


had some difficult


with the justices of the peace and


saying


that it doesn't apply a post-judgment 


and they've had to


do  education with the justice 


justices of peace and threaten


 mandanis lawsuits against the


justices of the peace in order to


get enforcement but they seem to be


coming around


our experience in el paso seems to be


that they are


 applying the  cdc order


and austin the we're very unique still


because


the austin we have an austin mayor's


order that


has prohibits evictions and notices to


vacate through september 


and there's some talk that will be


extended so we're not


seeing the volume of evictions


almost no non-payment of rent evictions


obviously


in austin unless someone is unaware of


the


completely unaware of the order  so


yes there's


 varying degrees of


knowledge but it seems to be yeah


the justice of the peace are


increasingly aware


and a good advocate can quickly make


them aware


of the  of the


cdc christina did you have anything


in particular you


want to add about Bexar county and what


you're seeing


yes kind of on the negative


not not i don't want to talk negatively


but one thing that i


am seeing and and this is this started


with the care sack went into


into place i've seen landlords


deliberately couch evictions as being


not for non-payment


rent and this is something that all of


us as


legal service providers have been


talking about because


it's an issue that we're having to deal


with i work


with one of our local 


agencies that provides pro attorneys but


i like to remind them


that if you're appearing on zoom the


judge can't haul you away for contempt


so keep that in mind when you're when


you're if you're doing pro bono work


appear by zoom


and you can make the judge agree they'll


send you a bill they won't take away


your phone


but anyway fred  if you'd like to to


kick in about how to handle


what we see as being a truly it's about


non-payment of rent but it gets couched


as something else


lease violations or maybe  a


termination of lease that shouldn't be


terminated


right part of


the order obviously and lawyers are


going to have to be


really carefully scrutinizing cases


that come in as something other than


non-payment or friend


but the client is telling us well


they've listed this round as a basis for


addiction but i also too much


a two months rent and in those cases i


view


our role as  convincing the judge


that the basis for the eviction is


a  mirror  south refuge


and the real  underlying reason is the


non-payment


and and having the client  submit the


cc declaration to the landlord and file


it with the court


and then argue to the argue to the court


if the landlord proceeds that the land


that the true reason for the eviction is


indeed non-payment of rent


and  that the case has to be abated


 we'll see what happens with that the


strength of the case will obviously


depend upon


the particular  facts and each


circumstance and the quality of the


justice of the peace  so


 it's did you have anything to add


on that point  i just wanna


bring this full circle and before we


move on to our next segment kind of give


listeners  hopefully potential pro


bono attorneys


an idea of what they can do so if you


want to share i'm going to share


one of my experiences real quick which


should only take a couple seconds


 positive experiences with your


attorneys


getting evictions kicked or abated


because of the cdc order


at least in my experience i've i've i've


already represented three or four


since the  ddc order came down


and all of them except for that one


that's still pending in the accounting


court have been


updated until january first and


if i can speak for land with i'm not


sure if i have that authority but


 as far as the housing practice team


goes at legal aid


almost every eviction that has been


spoken about


where the cdc order has been discussed


that client has gotten an abatement


granted


meaning they're not going to be


displaced or removed from their home


 and and the hearing has been


postponed until january first so


if a pro bono attorney is listening to


this once


involved in the short term contact one


of our


 our firms and and you can help some


tenants fill out some orders and present


them to the judge and


i want to know if fred if you if you


have any similar experiences or


christina i'll just subject  very


briefly throughout the service area the


justices and the peace arms


 as  overall


 stopping these evictions now


 one when a cdc declaration is


filed and someone who is considering


taking cases as a pro bono attorney one


of the nice things about this is think


of it as a


as a bankruptcy stay order it


acts  almost automatically once it's


filed


now under the supreme court's order


issued yesterday


the  landlord has a has a


right to actually  contest the cdc


declaration


and so that will potentially raise some


issues for pro bono attorneys going


forward


and if you're thinking of taking one of


these cases as


a pro bono attorney if you read the cdc


order


and you read the supreme court's th


emergency order


and get just a bit of guidance from your


local legal services program


you can handle these cases and ask


stewart to make a huge difference in the


lives of tenants


what about you christina just to round


this out have you seen i know we're


running over on


time on this segment and


pablo the cop podcast cop is about to


interrupt me


but  i'm gonna go over your house


right now man


but i i want to hear i mean this is just


so important i think  it's a timely


and i want to hear if christina in san


antonio has any comments just to


hopefully inspire some some pro bono


attorneys to start taking these cases


oh my goodness yes i am constantly


begging bribing threatening attorneys to


take


a pro bono house in case because


the good that you can do is something


that just can't even be


be measured there's no way to master it


the


the the good that we do is something


that will ripple out into people's lives


and just go on for years you just can't


even measure it


i try and tell  friends that practice


law think about if you were told you


have to be out in three days


what would you do and seriously think


about what would you do how much


property would you lose how messed up


would your kids be their school years be


your job i mean it just goes on and on


and for like an hour or two of your time


you can help somebody


you'll get extra cake in heaven that's


my opinion


the real impact the material impact of


an eviction


on on our clients and applicants and


like what it


what toll it actually takes on them a


lot of times as attorneys we get kind of


lost in the abstract and forget about


what actually happens


to people  maybe less so with


with legal services attorneys like us


but


 definitely it definitely still


happens just because of the vole of


the cases that we see


 and so  yeah thank you for bringing


that home and grounding us again


it's really important i think and all


right pablo i'll let you


thank you stuart talk to your dog by


phone here to come and attack you i know


he's in the background


yeah i just gotta put her in the other


room she's gone i thought something


she's part of the interview it's okay 


so yeah let me say something folks here


can only hear the audio right now but


they can't see the video and i'm 


i'm like binging on the brella academy


series


and christina has this cool effect on


her screen that makes her seem like one


of the characters let me just say that


right now so if y'all can visualize


there


and she's giving you this great advice


there's something else going on with the


screen the rest of it is just kind of


plainly looking at the screen


But let’s go ahead and talk to Christina now


And for introduction we have Belinda 


Belinda take it away


Oh sure thing, thank you pablo


You’ve already heard the name and voice


Of our next speaker 


She is Christina Trejo 


Christina is the team manager for the community


Housing rights project at Texas Rio Grande Legal Aid 


San antonio office 


She’s also a graduate of 


university of texas law school 


Christina was also a former recipient of an impact


award


which honors attorneys for recent


poverty law cases and makes a


significant


impact on the lives of low income


individuals in texas


basically what all that means is when


we're considering guests for this


podcast


her name was one the first one


mentioned


thank you for joining us christina 


Oh thanks for having me and by the way


pablo the


the fact that you're seeing is based on


bad internet


and a posting council recently told me


that  it reminded him of dark shadow


it's scary i would settle in control i


don't know if it's a good thing or a bad


thing maybe judges can't seem to


be right i would settle down i would


suddenly


at least people can't see me rolling my


eyes not that i do it that frequently


but


thank you for that introduction wow i


sound kind of important


yeah  a few years ago my son


told his class that i was the best


Vacuumer of a mother so


i'm gonna tell him today to listen to


this podcast and hear about some of the


other stuff i do


 yeah i do i wear a lot of hats at


trella but really i kind of consider


myself


a marine of the legal world


poor fred he's always getting these


hysterical calls from me brad


tell me the law so i can go litigate it


and  and and he always takes the time


he's got he's so much


he has so much patience i wish everybody


was lucky but there's only so many


friends in the world


but  but yeah i try and split my time


between kind of running a few things and


then also doing cases so i'm out there


doing the cases pretty frequently


and i also like i mentioned before i do


try and work with a local places that


hooks us up with pro bono attorneys so


now you know based on all these new


developments


protections that are coming out we have


a lot more to work work with


and so i think this is a really great


time for


pro bono people anyone who's interested


in doing pro bono work


get involved in housing you know


if you've ever done family law you know


that those cases can really take a long


time but with housing you can get in and


out


and you can make a tangible benefit


in people's lives versus other kinds of


law where sometimes it's more gray


and it takes a lot longer to get to the


final outcome


so housing is a great way to do that and


it's fun


if anybody is listening to this and they


don't do a lot of housing law


as you probably surmised from this


discussion


it take it all starts in jp court which


that's


interesting in and of itself it's there


they're great places to be


and the large majority of cases


are filed by landlords that are working


without


attorneys so as pro bono attorneys


you can get in there and negotiate ahead


of time and never even have to


necessarily appear in court  i'm very


good at threatening


and and and also cajoling and shaming


and


you know all these things that are


pretty useful as an attorney


but i sometimes forget that the most


basic


tool that i have before i


ever take a step in a case is to get on


the phone with


a client and see what they want to do


and then also to get on the phone with


the opponent


whether it be a landlord or whether it


be an attorney for a landlord


because a lot of times things can get


worked out at that level


 i don't really think so much about


housing in terms


of litigating before mitigating because


to me a lot of it is mitigation


sometime people because if you go to


court you know you may not get a judge


who necessarily


will apply the correct law and you may


not


have a client who will be happy with the


outcome if it's not exactly what they


want


so  recently


this is this is one of my hysterical


friend calls i called fred


because i had an opponent who was not


did not have an attorney


and i got on the horn with him and


within


about four minutes to do so he was not


going to play ball he was not going to


negotiate


and i had to get pretty loud with him


which i ordinarily don't do unless it's


necessary but my


i have a  year old and her eyes just


got wider and wider and wider


and by the time i told him all right i


have to go thank you and hung up


she said whoa you yelled at him louder


than you yell at me mom


said yeah well you know he deserved it


We called that homeschooling


homeschooling right yeah...


so within five minutes the guy called me


back and picked another fight with me


and so we did some more yelling and


screaming hung up


i got back to my drafting and one hour


later he called me back


a completely different man it was like


sybil he wanted to


negotiate and play nice and he ended up


giving the clients exactly what they


needed


and at the end of the day they sent me


like five texts the next day just


thanking me thanking me thanking me


because


they had seven children and they were


gonna have to be out


within  hours had i not had that


you know done that phone call so 


i just hope that people will listen to


this and


decide to to get in there you're not


gonna have to yell at people necessarily


this was 


maybe like for me it's a one in ten


experience when i actually do have to


raise my voice at all most of the time


people are just trying to


do what they need to do as part of their


job


do you have any anything to add to that


fred


i would like to just add briefly with


respect to the cdc


order for pro bono attorneys that it's


important to remind your


clients that the order is not a


get out of jail free order 


it will keep you from being evicted if


all the statements


in the order in the declaration that you


sign are true


it will protect you through december


st and the landlord cannot


but but under the cdc order late fees


can continue to accrue and rent can


continue to accrue


and after december st the landlord


will be able to give


a a notice to vacate in accordance with


the terms of the lease


and proceed with  filing an eviction


and trying to get a rent judgment so


what's important here


is to use the if you're representing a


client right here it's to really counsel


the tenant about the importance of


using this period of time until december


 


to try to get together


the rent and reach an agreement with the


landlord to reinstate


 the lease with the repayment


agreement or to focus on trying to find


other housing


 because come january one


unless that order is extended which i


know or congress


acts there's going to be many


folks who are going to be in higher


straights they will have avoided


eviction for four months


 but they need to be focused now


on what  what the plan is for the


future


that's the only comment that i would


interject 


i agree completely i am count i am


definitely counseling people


that it is not a get a jail free card


like you and and come january


we might be seeing some really gigantic


rent judgments


i remind them of how long that's going


to follow them around


and i tell them to make sure and pay


everything they can possibly


pay that being said i also remind them


not to do anything else that could be


couched as


a lease violation between now and


descent well ever right but


at least especially during this period


because they do not


want to give landlords another reason


to go in there and file and for it to


not be for something that's protected


under the cdc declaration


so i've noticed you know over the years


that landlords because


it's because it's their job it seemed to


take


someone not paying rent very


personally which we all know it's not


personal especially not right now during


the pandemic


but but sometimes they can be quite


angry about the person not having paid


their rent and so then there ends up


being some bad


blood there and i've just been careful


with the clients that i've been


representing since the declaration


became available i tell them don't go


don't don't act like you won


in front of the landlord because they


might take it personal and


go back and then go do another petition


and say this time you know they were


hassling the maintenance man or creating


a disturbance or being loud or whatever


it is that might be claimed


so along with this declaration i think


there's some important things we need


to remind our clients when they do


utilize them


christine if i might just interject 


really


quickly at this point too and you and


stuart both


 refer to this and that is that the


courts are


abating the eviction and not dismissing


it and


and that's required now under


the supreme court order issued yesterday


that the eviction actually be


abated and not this missed and so


that's an important thing


that for pro bono lawyers to keep in


mind is that if they have entered an


appearance


or even if they haven't if their


client if they've advised the client and


helped the client


file the declaration and the court has


updated it that


that the client the tenant needs to be


aware


the case is still out there and unless


something is reached with


the landlord 


come january  sometime in january there


will be a new trial day


and so that the tenant has to be


especially aware


that not to ignore any correspondence


that might come from the court then


in january so that's just an extra


point that pro bono attorneys need to


advise  their clients about


in the in these cases i know


christina and stuart both of you have


had to actually


sue landlords who were refusing to


comply


with the cares act and


the cdc order now


may also give rise to some of that


it's got very stiff critical penalties


obviously for a landlord who doesn't


comply but if a


if a pro bono attorney would ask you


is it is it possible if a landlord is


just


ignoring this to take any affirmative


action


do you see potential claims  that


decision is


against the landlord our pro bono


attorney on behalf of


a attendant might be able to assert


against the landlord under texas law


that might


bring about compliance


stewart what do you think i mean i think


the answer is yes i mean and


sure yes i think there's it might not be


as strong as a claim that


that existed under the cares act 


because the cares act provided for


a temporary


prohibition of charging late fees 


this one


the cdc order does not right and so


in our care act litigation the one


that i have pending


one of the main parts of it is that they


were one of the main allegations


is that they were unlawfully charging


late fees and that's how he brought


a ... basically saying that they were


trying to collect the debt that they


weren't legally allowed


to collect and in layman's terms right a


fair debt collection practices


actually  and so


the texas debt collection act or also


the


federal act the federal act in our case


okay right


and so similar allegations could be made


against the landlord in this context but


only if they're trying to file evictions


and stuff like that once they've been


notified by the tenant that they are


a covered person by


having been delivered a declaration a


cdc declaration for the order


right and if the if the landlord


continues to


pursue an eviction action against the


tenant after the order has been


given to them it could give rise to


some sort of civil


liability to the landlord under a


deceptive trade practices that claim or


some other type of claim


by trying to and trying to act on


something they can't legally do at this


time at least


and so yeah i think i think there exists


a potential claim to enforce


the cdc order on the civil side as


opposed to just


letting the landlord know that these are


potential criminal penalties that you


could face if you refuse to


do what we're saying  but i don't


think it's as strong as


as it would have been under or as it


currently is our opinion claim is under


the cares act


but still it definitely wouldn't make a


claim and


if i'm a landlord and i get that kind of


demand letter i probably am going to say


okay maybe i should


rethink what i'm doing and for a pro


bono attorney who may be taking one of


these


cases if you're a newer attorney you


have to be careful as you know you


cannot


threaten  criminal prosecution to gain


leverage in a civil case


so you just can't do that without


violating the code of professional


responsibility


the penalties are there and the client


can certainly be


advised of what steps to take to


complain to the


us attorney's office but i agree with


stewart


and that one potential claim here


if the land if you have a landlord who


owns a big complex for example and


it's not compliant


at all with the act that you could


send a deceptive trade practices act


 demand letter and require and demand


that the


 that the landlord


sees that practice and begin complying


and seek damages if the landlord


fails to comply


christina didn't you use  the


deceptive trade practices act as one of


your claims when the landlord actually


failed to comply with the cares act


requirements


right yes i did and because of that the


wait period though for


them to reply  i i didn't


assert that within the lawsuit that i


brought but it was on the back burner


and so they knew that you know that's


another


i wouldn't say a tactic because it's not


a game but


i did bring suit for the things that


were ripe and then sent that


deceptive trade practices act demand


letter they knew that i would then amend


and add it to my


lawsuit if we didn't settle so yes i


agree completely


you know we can bring claims there's


something that the law sets out and if


it's and if it's not followed


damages however we couch it we coach it


appropriately we


seek damages but but for us as the


service providers i think the big value


is in just letting


the person that we're dealing with the


opponent that we're dealing with know


that that's what's coming if they don't


start complying and then get some


compliance


and then that compliance can spill over


if it's like you said a larger complex


the landlord knows they're going to have


to comply with regard to all their


tenants


so that's really the the to for me it's


the value


you know it's it's kind of tough to


bring affirmative suits


when you're trying to juggle you know


like as many people's evictions as you


can defend


so absolutely i wouldn't know


at this point too that the 


stewart has


stated at the onset that he's


representing a client


where the landlord and the case is now


in county court at law


has actually challenged the cdc order


and that's going to be very interesting


what happens there


it will directly affect obviously


just


his client and the landlord but the


supreme court's emergency order


issued yesterday provides that the


eviction may pro proceed


if the landlord files a contest either


contesting the


declaration or contest in the cdc order


so what does that mean


and in your case stewart


exactly what is the landlord through the


landlord's attorneys


saying about the cdc order are they


challenging the client's declaration


or are they a challenge in the


constitutionality of the cdc order


itself


so that brings up a good a


good point 


from my understanding and just to echo


what you just said there's two ways that


they can challenge it right they can


challenge it the substance


of my client’s declaration


right by saying that she swore to or he


swore to something inaccurate


or by challenging the actual


constitutionality of the declaration


well in my case


the landlord's attorney i think


is doing both but so far in court the


only thing he's done is challenge the


constitutionality of it


outside of court he said he might serve


he's going to serve me with discovery


To actually contested it but that's not been


filed yet


right so he has challenged the


constitutionality of the order


he's done so under 10th amendment


grounds under


commerce clause grounds which i think


if you anyone who knows the constitution


knows that should not apply in this case


but


and under a couple of different


constitutional grounds


and so 


the judge basically was telling both of


us that he needs time to review this


but again this


was before it was on wednesday


morning and and


today is friday but last night the texas


supreme court


published its new order and so i i do


think it's it's likely to be abated


at least at this level and we'll see


if the landlord and


landlord's attorney wants to spend the money


to


Appeal  it but


substance of the declaration that just


hasn't been actually filed in court yet


so we'll see how it goes and as far as i


know just speaking to activists on the


ground


mostly in dallas


there are a lot of landlords who are


requiring


proof of the declaration itself


right even though the cdc order doesn't


call for it


i know for a fact that there are


apartments that certainly.. that would


that would mean the eligibility


requirements that the tenants would of


our


of our services and 


a lot of landlords and property


management companies are are if you if


the tenant is


supplying a signed a cdc declaration


trying to enforce the rights for the


order


are saying okay we'll take the


declaration but you also have


 24 hours to give us your income


statement


and and any other basically any other


evidence that they're trying to


to squeeze out of the the tenant 


this is all before court too so all


All right


 i do want to share i know it's time


we're getting close to we're at the


55 minute mark


and so we're getting close to an hour


here but i do want to share one story


just to kind of let the listener know


the type of impact a pro bono attorney


can have and


my client gave me permission to share


her information and her name i'm not


going to share her name


but i do want to share her story


 she is ….. 


 i have a client who has seven


seven children and is supported by the


father of the children who they live


they live together  and all the kids


are


age 4 through 15 so


first a household of nine with seven


children


and the father unfortunately because of


covid in may


was laid off and so the


the family lost their only source of


income


and so of course she got a notice to


vacate she fell behind on rent and of


course the landlord


filed the eviction well my client 


due to representations from a landlord


did not


go to the eviction here because she


thought that they were going to work at


a


payment plan she thought that


the landlord was going to dismiss the


case she was instructed by the landlord


to not go so


she missed her eviction hearing and of


course the judge ruled


against her because she wasn't there and


issued the eviction judgment


the landlord then purchase the writ of


possession


and that was on


november that was on september th the


landlord purchased the written


possession on september


th to be executed on september th


and so of course the


my client freaking out doesn't know what


to do calls us


up on september th the morning of the


eviction was supposed to be scheduled it


was scheduled for   in the morning


and we retain the client and


the first thing i do is make sure she


signed that declaration and issued it to


the landlord


so i draft up an emergency motion to


vacate over to possession


attach the declaration


enter an appearance in a court and file


all those docents at the same time


i get a call from the court saying first


off thank you


and then second off saying that they


were going to grant my abatement


and and abate the written possession


until january st so


that's a client who


has seven heads a family of nine people


who would have been put out on the


street


on september th who because of this


order


and because of the fast acting of our


intake staff at landwick getting it to


me


as soon as we can was able to avoid

being put out on the street with a


family of nine seven


under  15 years old and so that's the

kind of cases that


really hit home right  and


those are the kind of cases that a pro


bono attorney can take and really make a


huge impact on their community and i


really encourage


anyone that is interested in helping out


in evictions during this time to please


contact


one of our organizations and see if you


can help  pay people's lives


like the like the story you just heard


and so i think it's time probably to


wrap


up but if anyone has any comments or


questions


try to entertain them i would just add


briefly to that that that's a


perfect example of the difference the


lawyer makes any case


and we can't handle all of those cases


as the legal services lawyers


and pro bono attorneys can help so much


so we would encourage you


 to take these  cases


because without a lawyer this order


is meaningless  and


rights can be created by congress or


administrative agencies


but when individuals are uninformed


about the rights


 only a lawyer can make sure that


those rights are


enforced and that's why pro bono


attorneys are


critical  to help


enforcement of the cdc order and to


prevent evictions and ultimately


the prevention of evictions in this


pandemic


as we all know is also a


huge health issue so i


encourage you to take cases and 


call your local legal services program


thousand lawyers if you need advice on


directional cases


thanks thank you thank you fred so much


ladies belinda christina


anything you want to add before we wrap


up here


oh i think this was a great episode i


mean


yeah it was sorry about that it's hard


to not talk over people


i apologize that's okay


no i did that i'm sorry it do some of


that




you all are our first  guest here so


speaker so hopefully y'all can we can


apologize to you all


but thank you so much considering it's


been an hour it's been great information


i hope our pro bono attorneys


appreciated it


i do want to point out that you


mentioned the texas justice court


training center


that might be a bit foreign to people


that haven't done a lot of these cases


if you


do want to go to their website it's


actually very informative you can also


maybe forward some of the judges or


court personnel out there it's


tjctc.org


the initials for


texasjusticecourttrainingcenter.org


it's very helpful i want to thank our


speakers here today again and christina


trejo from texas riogrande legal aid and


fred fuse from texas riogrande legal and


obviously a ut law professor after


how he went to after stewart in the


beginning of the show in his oklahoma


state


undergraduate experience i also want to


thank of course the


co-host here the linda and stewart you


know there's been a lot of work we put


you know done here and to be honest with


you we have like an intro spot here


about maybe  or  minutes long i mean


yeah i think more or less less than


about what the project is about that


might have taken longer to record in


this whole segment because we were just


so


trying to make sure we got everything


down right but we're going to have it


smoother i mean we're doing these more


often and we're going to see many more


of these 


podcasts coming up so  i want to


remind you if you're listening to this


to go to texas disaster legalhelp.org


for more resources including these


Podcasts