The podcast is about current updates to FEMA policy and what they may mean for future FEMA policy. Recent updates to FEMA policy are intended to increase equity in how FEMA distributes some forms of financial assistance to individuals. Our guests describe those changes, some related history, and how we hope they will prove helpful for FEMA applicants. Also. the way FEMA decided to share the policy updates marked a change that we hope signals a greater commitment to transparency in agency practices.
Guest Speakers: Tracy Figueroa and Hannah Dyal from Texas RioGrande Legal Aid
Music Credit: Track: Travel With Us — Vendredi [Audio Library Release] Music provided by Audio Library Plus Watch: https://youtu.be/o-rpKzt4KSY Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/travel-us
The podcast is about current updates to FEMA policy and what they may mean for future FEMA policy. Recent updates to FEMA policy are intended to increase equity in how FEMA distributes some forms of financial assistance to individuals. Our guests describe those changes, some related history, and how we hope they will prove helpful for FEMA applicants. Also. the way FEMA decided to share the policy updates marked a change that we hope signals a greater commitment to transparency in agency practices.
Guest Speakers: Tracy Figueroa and Hannah Dyal from Texas RioGrande Legal Aid
Music Credit: Track: Travel With Us — Vendredi [Audio Library Release] Music provided by Audio Library Plus Watch: https://youtu.be/o-rpKzt4KSY Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/travel-us
Transcript
Recorded November 12th 2021
Guest speakers: Tracy Figueroa TRLA
Heather Dyal TRLA
00:06
okay hello folks uh this is Pablo
and i
00:08
get started another episode here or
00:10
podcast for the texas disaster legal
00:12
help website I’m gonna go ahead and
00:14
introduce you know our
00:16
co-hosts here and they'll introduce our
00:18
speakers for the next topic here but let
00:20
me go ahead and do a little introduction
00:22
about the project itself so that you
00:24
know we are doing here today
00:26
so uh who are we we're a coordinated
00:29
project between legal aid northwest
00:30
texas lone star legal aid and texas riogrande
00:32
legal aid aimed at improving
00:34
access to justice for those affected by
00:35
disasters our project allows both
00:37
disaster survivors and pro bono
00:39
attorneys to access critical resources
00:41
in one place while at the same time
00:42
making it easier to connect disaster
00:44
survivors needing legal help with
00:46
volunteer attorneys willing to provide
00:48
it in this way the project team hopes to
00:50
increase the number of disaster survivor
00:52
clients who receive a high quality legal
00:54
assistance as they continue to navigate
00:56
the recovery process after a disaster
00:58
and provide the support and mentorship
01:00
pro bono attorneys need to achieve
01:02
success
01:03
we're here with me today my co-hosts are
01:05
amy allen from legal aid of northwest
01:07
texas and we have belinda martinez from
01:09
lone star legal aid uh that rounds out the
01:11
three largest legal programs here
01:12
instead of texas and I’m going to go
01:14
ahead and pass it on over to belinda to
01:15
introduce our speakers today
01:17
thank you as always Pablo
01:19
our first guest today is Tracy Figueroa
01:22
Tracy obtained her law degree from
01:23
washington university school of law in
01:25
st louis and served as a law clerk to
01:27
judge hayden w head junior of the u.s
01:29
district court for the southern district
01:30
of texas corpus christi division
01:32
she joined texas riogrande legal aid in
01:34
2002 and her primary practice areas have
01:36
included family law wills estates and
01:38
disaster benefits with an emphasis on
01:40
administrative matters and litigation
01:42
against fema for over 18 years she was
01:45
the managing attorney in charge of
01:46
trla's disaster assistance practice
01:48
and during that time coordinated trla’s
01:49
responds to more than 15 federally
01:51
declared national disasters
01:53
because of her work on behalf of
01:54
disaster survivor she received an impact
01:56
award from the property law section of
01:58
the state bar of texas in 2018 and a
02:00
resolution from the state bar texas in
02:02
2019
02:03
she has been a member of the american
02:04
bar association standing committee on
02:06
disaster response and preparedness since
02:08
2018
02:10
our other guest is Hannah Dyal
02:12
Hannah received her law degree from the
02:13
university of texas school of law in
02:14
2017
02:16
and is currently a staff attorney with
02:18
trla focused on wills and estates and
02:19
disaster recovery
02:21
while at trla Hannah completed a
02:22
fellowship as far as the inaugural equal
02:24
justice works disaster recovery legal
02:26
corps from 2018 to 2020 and a second
02:29
fellowship as far as the equal justice
02:30
works disaster recovery program from
02:32
2020 to 2021.
02:34
and also served as a member of the
02:36
american bar association young lawyers
02:38
division disaster legal services team
02:40
from
02:41
2019-2020 where she worked with disaster
02:43
response organizations nationwide thank
02:45
you for joining us ladies
02:48
thank you for having us
02:50
okay
02:53
This podcast is about current updates of
02:54
fema policy and what they may mean for
02:57
future fema policy can you just give
02:59
us an overview of what you're going to
03:00
cover today
03:02
sure so um fema made these changes and
03:05
published them in september of this year
03:07
and they're effective for disaster
03:09
survivors affected by disasters that
03:11
occurred august 23rd
03:13
of 2021 or later
03:15
um
03:16
these changes are intended to increase
03:18
equity
03:19
and that's really important because
03:22
when there are administrative burdens
03:24
they don't fall equally on all entities
03:26
and individuals it leads to
03:27
disproportionate underutilization of
03:29
critical services and programs as well
03:31
as unequal costs of access often by
03:33
people in communities that need them the
03:35
most
03:35
that is a quote from
03:37
a report that was submitted to the
03:39
president following an executive order
03:41
that fema is following and trying to
03:43
increase equity
03:45
we're going to describe what these fema
03:46
changes are some of the related contexts
03:49
in history and how we hope these are
03:51
actually going to be helpful for fema
03:53
applicants in practice
03:55
we'll also note what some of our
03:56
reservations are about how this might
03:59
play out in practical terms we are very
04:01
hopeful but want to caution advocates
04:03
about what they need to look out for if
04:05
they're working with clients in these
04:07
kinds of cases
04:08
and we want to unpack why the process
04:10
that fema used to actually announce
04:12
these recent changes is in and of itself
04:15
noteworthy we're hoping that it signals
04:16
a greater commitment to transparency in
04:18
general
04:20
i think most people in texas have at
04:22
least heard about fema
04:24
but for those new to disaster recovery
04:26
process can you give us some context
04:28
what is fema what is the role of human
04:29
disasters and how does that affect our
04:31
pro bono volunteers
04:34
yeah absolutely so
04:36
most people in texas have definitely
04:38
heard of fema but most people when they
04:40
think of fema probably think um
04:43
primarily hurricanes first of all if
04:45
you're in texas that's what you're
04:46
thinking of
04:47
um and you're probably thinking about
04:50
immediately post hurricane fema coming
04:53
in with you know food water other
04:56
supplies for people potentially helping
04:58
with rescues and doing recovery and you
05:01
know mucking and gutting and all of that
05:03
work immediately post disasters so you
05:05
may think of fema as something that
05:07
exists for three to six months post
05:08
disaster and that's really their only
05:10
role and that's a huge role a really
05:12
important role um but it's not the only
05:15
role fema has so fema does
05:17
um like preparedness throughout uh
05:20
you know fair weather times um for all
05:23
kinds of disaster types earthquakes
05:25
hurricanes winter storms um tsunamis
05:28
they work with local state governments
05:30
to disaster prep disaster plan
05:33
um and then they do the
05:36
recovery work um immediately post
05:38
disasters and then they also are
05:40
involved in mitigation um
05:44
uh during fair weather times as well and
05:46
in the longer term recovery uh process
05:49
so fema has a lot to do with disasters
05:52
even outside the context of you know the
05:54
six months following a disaster now
05:57
the legal work with fema and the
05:59
legal work that pro bono attorneys would
06:01
be
06:02
doing and helping um individuals who who
06:04
need assistance on um it probably is
06:07
going to be in that six month to a year
06:09
phase that's where the most um
06:12
you know disaster survivors that's when
06:15
they're going to be seeking fema
06:16
assistance and those are the cases that
06:18
um
06:19
you know legal aids and you know all
06:23
communities in general that are impacted
06:24
by disasters need that's when they need
06:26
the pro bono attorneys to come in and
06:28
help um because as you can imagine when
06:31
you have an event like hurricane harvey
06:33
right after that disaster there is a
06:35
wave
06:36
of people seeking fema assistance um and
06:40
having issues navigating the system
06:42
especially if their homes are damaged
06:44
and they're not having they don't have a
06:45
stable place to live and the whole
06:47
system is very bureaucratic and
06:48
difficult um so that's when uh pro bono
06:52
attorneys are a lifesaver for those
06:55
individuals because they can take on the
06:57
case and help the person navigate
06:59
fema and get that recovery um much
07:02
quicker so um the types of
07:06
oh
07:07
sorry Hannah I interrupted you can
07:09
definitely just stop whenever you want
07:10
here but
07:11
i wanted to ask them because i know our
07:13
audience here are pro bono attorneys and
07:14
then listen to today's podcast actually
07:16
i think early on the cles we did one
07:18
about the life cycle of a disaster and
07:20
so they might have heard about that and
07:21
you kind of explain that how things
07:22
change in a few months along the way if
07:25
one of our volunteers picks this up you
07:27
know this is to the cle and thinks about
07:28
you know taking on a fema case for the
07:30
first time on appeal
07:32
is it really that difficult to have a
07:33
case where the regulations involved or
07:35
does this make it easier or what is your
07:36
experience for
07:38
a new pro bono attorney picking up the
07:39
case how easy is it to do one of
07:42
those appeals
07:45
um
07:46
tracy do you want to take a first stab
07:47
at that
07:48
sure
07:49
so um
07:51
we note that
07:52
different fema applicants may be just
07:55
fine without a lawyer just like some
07:57
people who need help from social
07:59
security administration or who need to
08:01
submit an application to establish their
08:04
immigration
08:05
status maybe they're going to be just
08:06
fine without an advocate but that isn't
08:09
true for everyone who needs
08:11
administrative benefits or who needs
08:13
help from another kind of agency some
08:14
people need more help navigating a
08:16
bureaucracy and so um it's important
08:20
that we have advocates trained and
08:22
available to help those who are going to
08:24
struggle more just navigating any
08:26
bureaucracy at all whether it's because
08:27
of education
08:29
level or level of sophistication
08:31
or
08:32
other barriers that could prevent them
08:33
from just working through whatever the
08:35
system actually is and then
08:38
we have found as lawyers that have
08:40
worked with clients in thousands of fema
08:43
appeals over roughly a 20-year period
08:45
and over 15 federally declared disasters
08:48
it isn't easy um
08:50
we um
08:52
have found it difficult to get a handle
08:55
on what standards consistently are being
08:57
applied to
08:59
who is and isn't eligible um and so
09:02
that's some of these changes that we're
09:04
going to be describing here are going to
09:05
make a difference we believe but it's
09:08
still not addressing all of the
09:09
eligibility considerations that um
09:13
we
09:13
don't understand fully yet
09:16
fema has a statute
09:18
42
09:19
usc 5174-j that talks about this fema
09:22
individuals and households program that
09:24
Hannah was describing fema has 10
09:26
regulations it's 44 CFR
09:30
206.110 through 120.
09:32
those are the 10 regs
09:34
that control
09:35
the ihp program
09:37
but beyond that um we haven't seen a lot
09:40
from fema published consistently about
09:43
how they interpret it what the policies
09:45
actually are
09:47
we've seen more over time so let me kind
09:49
of explain what that is um
09:51
in 2016 fema published its individuals
09:55
and households program unified guidance
09:57
labeling it as comprehensive
09:59
um
10:00
and it did tell us more all in one place
10:03
about how they interpret
10:05
standards that are
10:07
um at least labeled within the
10:10
regulations themselves um and i won't
10:12
take time to unpack a whole bunch of
10:14
this here but when you're working on all
10:16
kinds of fact patterns and you're seeing
10:18
how clients feel puzzled about why they
10:20
were
10:21
granted or denied assistance
10:23
we see gaps we see gaps that we cannot
10:26
look at regs or the published policies
10:27
to help us explore so um well we spent
10:31
many years not having the benefit of
10:33
even the guidance that was then
10:34
published in 2016 we're grateful for
10:36
that now and
10:38
the recent changes are
10:41
are like furthering what was published
10:43
in 2016. that ipug we call it um was
10:48
modified and labeled as the now we call
10:50
it iappg the individual assistance
10:52
program policy guide in 2018 or so it's
10:57
on um it's a couple of iterations out
10:59
from there
11:01
um
11:02
and so
11:03
we can look there to see more specifics
11:06
about how somebody who needs to
11:07
establish their eligibility by saying
11:10
proving they're the owner of their home
11:12
hannah's gonna talk more about this what
11:14
more fema might be looking for for that
11:16
um
11:17
in the past
11:19
we didn't have access to those kinds of
11:21
lists and it was more of an exercise of
11:23
who do you know did you go to the right
11:25
meeting do you have the right national
11:26
connection um what are other disaster
11:29
lawyers who've worked with clients
11:30
finding out what did the helpline tell
11:31
you to try to put together how this
11:35
works
11:36
um and we would find out there were like
11:38
internal memos that were occasionally
11:40
shared that would lay out some of these
11:41
standards so in any event we're excited
11:43
about the fact that we there's more
11:45
information available online
11:47
um about this now
11:49
and um
11:51
but it anyway i think that pro bono
11:53
attorneys who are trying to work on this
11:55
there is now much more published from
11:56
fema about the rules that apply there's
11:59
also much more published by advocates
12:02
like us and um the other organizations
12:05
represented on this podcast on
12:06
Lone star legal aid and lanwt and others
12:08
across the nation who have done a lot of
12:10
this and a lot of that is accessible in
12:12
knowledge resource library materials
12:14
that are part of this pro bono portal so
12:16
there's a lot of things those attorneys
12:18
can do but man if you're pro se trying
12:19
to navigate this for the first time
12:21
really hard lawyers are helpful thank
12:24
you Tracy sorry Hannah
12:27
yeah that's okay um
12:30
okay so um the changes that we are going
12:33
to be talking about um the updates to
12:36
fema's fema's rules mainly focus on the
12:40
individual assistance
12:42
piece and so for those who aren't aware
12:44
and even individual assistance is the um
12:47
assistance that's available for
12:49
disaster survivors so fema also does
12:52
like public assistance for local
12:53
governments and things like that but
12:55
what we're going to talk about is the
12:57
updates are to uh assistance for
13:00
disaster survivors themselves and
13:01
there's a whole bunch of types of
13:02
assistance
13:04
some of the main ones are home repair
13:05
vehicle replacement personal property
13:07
repair and replacement um uh there's the
13:11
temporary sheltering and stuff like that
13:13
but we're talking primarily about
13:15
home repair um so the
13:18
updates uh they they
13:21
there were a couple of smaller updates
13:22
that we're not going to go into too much
13:24
detail about that changed kind of um you
13:27
know somebody who's become disabled
13:29
because of
13:31
the disaster now has additional things
13:33
they can get assistance for so there's
13:34
been some small edits
13:36
but the biggest chunk of the new update
13:40
has to do with
13:42
the documents you use to prove
13:45
you owned your home at the time of the
13:47
disaster or that you occupied your home
13:50
at the time of the disaster and so to
13:52
back up a little bit in order to qualify
13:55
for fema assistance um there's a list of
13:58
things that you you have to show you
14:00
have to show that you have an eligible
14:01
citizenship type you have to show that
14:04
um your uh
14:06
uh
14:07
you or your property was damaged
14:09
by the disaster that you um
14:12
and that you occupied um
14:15
a residence in the disaster area um at
14:19
the time of the disaster
14:21
but
14:21
one thing you have to prove if you're
14:23
going to get home repair and you don't
14:24
have to prove it in other
14:26
settings and for other
14:27
types of assistance is that you owned
14:29
your home now for the listeners who
14:32
do probate or real estate work you may
14:34
know that saying that oh you have to
14:36
show you owned your home is um that's
14:39
there's a whole can of worms there um
14:41
and that's fema is
14:44
also struggling with that and struggling
14:46
to define what that means exactly um
14:50
fema's actual rules so the cfr’s that
14:53
tracy was mentioning earlier and in 44
14:55
cfr
14:56
206.111
14:58
that lists that's the only you know
15:01
real
15:02
um list of
15:04
of uh eligible ownership statuses and so
15:08
the number one way to show that you are
15:10
eligible for home repair is to be a
15:12
legal owner
15:14
um which that's the one we're going to
15:15
be unpacking here in a second the second
15:17
one which is actually really really
15:19
great and something a lot of people
15:20
don't know about but is really helpful
15:22
for disaster survivors if you can show
15:25
show fema that you
15:27
do not pay rent you're not a legal owner
15:29
at all but you don't pay rent for the
15:30
home you live in and you do pay the
15:32
taxes or the maintenance fema will
15:34
consider you
15:35
an owner and you can obtain home repair
15:38
assistance so that's really great um you
15:41
know we see lots of clients who who do
15:43
qualify for fema assistance in that way
15:45
um
15:46
and then the third
15:48
reason which we're not going to talk
15:49
about too much but if you're a lifetime
15:51
if you have lifetime occupancy rights to
15:53
a home
15:54
but the formal title is vested in
15:56
someone else you can also obtain home
15:58
repair assistance um so look going back
16:00
to
16:01
a legal owner
16:03
that is the standard however fema
16:06
operates in all 50 states it operates in
16:08
territories in theory they're supposed
16:10
to use the standard of ownership the
16:12
state uses
16:13
but again as those who work in probate
16:15
and real estate already know states have
16:18
different standards states do things
16:20
that are weird um and the people at fema
16:23
who are looking at these documents and
16:25
reviewing these documents to to
16:27
determine whether or not an individual
16:28
owns their home
16:30
are
16:30
almost never attorneys so they're
16:33
they're
16:34
trying to interpret ownership documents
16:37
that they already don't understand and
16:39
in a whole bunch of different
16:40
jurisdictions so it is it's a it's a
16:42
difficult task um luckily the there was
16:46
a list of certain types of home
16:49
ownership documents that we had before
16:51
the new list the other the changes the
16:54
updates um lay out in more detail what
16:57
some of the documents are that fema will
17:00
accept and this is really beneficial um
17:03
a for
17:05
the um
17:06
the fema caseworkers because you know
17:08
you can now they have this list of
17:10
documents that should be acceptable and
17:12
b i mean it's helpful for pro se clients
17:14
it's helpful for pro bono attorneys who
17:16
are new to fema work because they can
17:19
look at it and see
17:20
you know they can cite to this and their
17:22
letter to fema and say no no it says in
17:25
that update that you're supposed to
17:26
accept this document you need to accept
17:28
this document um
17:30
so it's it's uh the the updated list is
17:34
we hope going to be uh extremely
17:37
beneficial to um
17:40
to uh individuals who who have had
17:42
trouble in the past uh showing that they
17:45
are um
17:47
the legal owners to their land and one
17:50
thing that um
17:52
is still tricky and i think tracy's
17:54
gonna talk about more later is people
17:56
who have heirship properties um
17:58
which which i'll leave uh her to talk
18:01
about that in a minute
18:06
so you said that there was now um
18:10
a longer list of acceptable documents
18:12
so what's the significance of that who
18:14
does it help the most
18:16
so um i i think it most helps
18:20
um
18:21
you know low-income
18:23
minority groups of people who are the
18:26
ones who struggle to
18:28
um
18:29
get the
18:31
standard traditional you know warranty
18:33
deed
18:33
the most um
18:36
you know i think i think some some
18:37
people may know there's been a lot of
18:39
publicity lately about the the heirship
18:41
properties which are you know properties
18:43
that are owned by family
18:46
in theory and you know to break it down
18:47
to the the simplest definition it's it's
18:50
a piece of property that's owned by a
18:51
family and title has not been cleared
18:52
for a really long time so there's dozens
18:55
if not
18:56
you know hundreds potentially depending
18:58
on how long its title has it's been
19:00
since title's been cleared potentially
19:01
hundreds of owners and no one can can
19:05
settle um
19:06
you know and everybody can't you can't
19:08
get everybody together you can't even
19:09
identify all of the owners but a lot of
19:11
that
19:12
those types of situations we see a lot
19:16
just slightly less confident but we have
19:18
a lot of people who haven't cleared
19:20
titles since the 70s or the 80s and
19:21
there's maybe 20 30 owners i haven't
19:24
seen too many where there's hundreds but
19:25
there we've there's a lot where there's
19:27
20 or 30 owners and you can't get
19:28
everybody on the same page um those
19:31
people
19:32
often get in those situations because
19:34
they do not have access to attorneys to
19:36
clear title um
19:38
and they don't have the resources to do
19:41
it and they don't know that they need to
19:43
they think that you know a mom wrote a
19:45
will i think it's somewhere she said she
19:47
left me the property i don't need to do
19:49
anything about that and they never ask
19:51
anybody
19:52
and nothing ever gets done and now they
19:54
have no
19:55
um ownership documents so
19:58
this acceptable list
20:01
uh the the new acceptable list of
20:03
documents
20:04
um for a family in that situation
20:08
one one thing we might do if you can get
20:10
the family on the same page is an
20:12
affidavit of heirship so for those of you
20:15
who aren't unfamiliar with affidavit of
20:16
heirship in texas um an affidavit of
20:19
heirship is a non-judicial method of
20:22
settling title where essentially you
20:24
just lay out the facts of um
20:28
the the person who's passed away you lay
20:29
out the facts of their life and
20:30
establish who their legal heirs are
20:33
under intestate laws so if they had no
20:35
will um you can explain
20:37
these three children are now the owners
20:39
two of the children sign their property
20:41
rights over to
20:43
our person who lives in the house and is
20:44
a disaster survivor and now that person
20:46
is the sole owner of the property um
20:49
and i'm only licensed in texas but my
20:51
understanding is that affidavits of
20:52
heirship are not super common in other
20:54
states so historically
20:58
somebody who has that affidavit of
21:00
heirship and deeds they're they are the
21:02
legal owner under texas law so they've
21:04
always been
21:06
eligible for fema's assistance because
21:09
they're the legal owner they meet the
21:10
standard under the cfr but what we see
21:13
happen
21:14
um is that aoh that affidavit of heirship
21:16
goes to fema
21:18
and fema has no idea what it is or what
21:21
trips people up a lot is fema has this
21:24
rule that says that this that that
21:26
document has to be done has to be in
21:28
effect
21:29
at the time of the disaster so if you
21:32
don't know you need to clear title and
21:33
you do it after the disaster the dates
21:36
on that affidavit of heirship may be
21:37
after the disaster now it's effective
21:39
before the disaster but fema doesn't
21:41
know how to read the document and they
21:42
can't figure that part out so then your
21:45
client gets denied because
21:47
um
21:48
fema doesn't know how to read the
21:49
document even though they are completely
21:51
eligible um
21:53
for the assistance so that our hope that
21:55
long explanation is is who we hope this
21:58
this longer list will help is the people
22:01
who
22:02
are in those situations um and who
22:04
aren't going to be able to get you know
22:06
Warranty deed with the deed of trust that's
22:08
super clean and neat and everyone
22:10
recognizes
22:11
they're going to get the messier
22:13
version
22:16
if i could expand on that a little bit
22:17
too one of the other things that's
22:20
important about these changes that fema
22:21
has made is they've actually expanded
22:23
the
22:25
period of time
22:26
for these documents to be considered
22:28
acceptable um before these changes
22:32
when there were certain documents that
22:34
fema was willing to accept as evidence
22:36
that somebody could demonstrate
22:38
occupancy in a home or ownership of a
22:40
home they were looking for documents
22:42
that had a date that was like three
22:44
months before the disaster occurred if
22:46
it was earlier than that or if it was
22:48
later than that
22:50
it wasn't considered
22:52
valid evidence for this it is now
22:55
expanded so that if it's dated within a
22:57
year before the disaster or within the
22:59
disaster period as they've got defined
23:01
here it's acceptable so i appreciate
23:04
that nod to the fact that um
23:07
clients that we work with we're not
23:09
necessarily going to have all of these
23:11
documents clean and in a row and all of
23:14
that you know and so if we were working
23:15
on these things in a reactive way
23:18
disaster occurs what do i need to
23:20
demonstrate i truly was the owner of my
23:23
home at the time of the disaster
23:25
but gee i can only get this document
23:27
prepared now that the disasters already
23:29
occurred you know will fema consider it
23:31
now that is explicitly to be allowed so
23:34
i think that that should help both the
23:37
clients that we work with and hopefully
23:39
the many clients who don't actually get
23:41
to work with an advocate
23:43
as they're pressing their own facts so i
23:45
think that expanded timing is going to
23:46
be really helpful
23:48
and then as hannah noted
23:50
fema has consistently allowed
23:53
um people to demonstrate that they meet
23:56
fema's definition of owner occupancy
23:59
by
24:01
showing that if you're not the legal
24:02
owner you're still a person who lived in
24:04
the home rent-free
24:06
and have been responsible for
24:08
maintenance of the home before the
24:09
disaster and fema has now
24:12
in this recent change explicitly said
24:16
we're going to accept receipts for major
24:18
repairs for a five-year period before
24:21
the disaster as evidence of that um
24:26
reason you should be treated as the
24:27
owner of the property for purposes of
24:29
receiving home repair assistance and so
24:31
that's
24:32
a clearer
24:33
way of um identifying what we would need
24:36
to help clients put together in order to
24:39
demonstrate that and
24:41
fema used to label that as a last resort
24:43
type of option and they're explicitly
24:45
saying now we're not going to call it a
24:47
last resort that's just acceptable proof
24:50
in the list with everything else so
24:51
again we think that's going to help um
24:54
and hannah may have mentioned some of
24:56
this but i want to note you know
24:58
when you're talking about equity when
25:00
you're talking about
25:01
our clients who are low income um and
25:05
for a variety of reasons that includes
25:08
minority populations um
25:11
there are reasons that it is
25:13
particularly difficult for clients to
25:15
navigate this bureaucracy and easily
25:17
hand to fema the proof that was easiest
25:20
for them to recognize you know if
25:22
everybody could just hand over a deed
25:24
you know to show they're the owner easy
25:26
check off that box and move on
25:28
but
25:29
if you don't have money to have lawyers
25:32
involved when you purchase a home if
25:35
you're not participating in
25:38
methods that involve traditional
25:39
financing with paperwork prepared by
25:42
lawyers on one or both ends of the
25:43
transaction if you are getting into your
25:46
home through
25:48
alternative forms like
25:50
executory contracts or contracts for deed
25:53
if you are
25:54
having informal transactions because
25:57
that's how you can afford to actually
25:58
have a home you know um
26:01
let's talk a bit about mobile homes and
26:03
travel trailers these are the primary
26:05
residences for some of the clients that
26:06
we work with and clients whose homes are
26:09
more likely than others to be damaged
26:11
you're talking about windstorm damage
26:13
you know um
26:14
fema is taking note of that in here
26:18
and um increasing the ways that people
26:21
would be able to demonstrate this was my
26:24
home
26:25
and i was the owner so please
26:28
give me the assistance i need to make it
26:30
habitable again
26:33
hannah do you have anything to add on
26:34
that point
26:37
um
26:39
no i don't i don't think so other than
26:41
just i'll i guess a little bit um the
26:44
the one thing about this because this is
26:46
it is a great update the update is
26:48
really helpful um the new list of
26:50
documents is great i will say um
26:53
it is it does still depend on um
26:58
the fema case workers
27:00
they still have to actually recognize
27:01
the document yeah the list says the
27:03
affidavit of heirship is acceptable but
27:06
you know affidavit of heirship
27:08
don't exist in every state so
27:10
what if somebody submits it from you
27:12
know a state where it's not acceptable
27:15
like what what are the different um
27:18
they still have to recognize which
27:19
states have those documents and if it's
27:21
a correct version of that document and
27:23
those things so it is very possible you
27:25
know we haven't really seen
27:27
these rules go into effect in a major
27:29
way with lots and lots of clients where
27:31
we can see if it's actually being
27:32
followed by fema so there's still a
27:35
strong chance that someone with that
27:37
affidavit of heirship and two warranty
27:38
deeds or whatever it is that they have
27:40
to show their title um they submit all
27:43
those documents to fema it's on the list
27:45
and fema is still like well i don't know
27:47
if i recognize
27:48
this doesn't look like a valid affidavit
27:50
of heirship to me so that is still
27:52
something that may happen um
27:54
and it's something that you know if you
27:56
if you are doing you know a case post
27:59
hurricane and you have somebody come in
28:01
um who looks to you like a clear owner
28:04
and then you're like this why is this
28:06
person been denied it could just be that
28:08
fema doesn't fema still isn't
28:09
interpreting the documents correctly
28:16
and i would like to say for the pro bono
28:18
attorneys listening we're throwing out
28:20
affidavit of heirship and a bunch of
28:21
other title clearing terms
28:23
generally for fema's purposes um like
28:26
she said now if you are living in the
28:28
residence and you're paying taxes that
28:30
counts which that's a huge advantage i
28:31
wish we had that right after harvey
28:33
because the number one reason for denial
28:35
is generally tile clearing issues
28:37
but for the attorneys out there an
28:39
affidavit of heirship
28:41
it's not a time-consuming document
28:43
if they can get their witnesses
28:44
together you're looking at
28:47
maybe a day of work day or two of work a
28:49
few hours
28:50
and even if you want to go further with
28:52
that if you can't actually clear the
28:53
title down to one owner and do something
28:56
called a transfer of death deed
28:59
that's also not a time-consuming process
29:00
it's filling out paperwork and filing
29:02
and with that not only have you cleared
29:04
title for that generation you've set up
29:06
the next generation for success so when
29:10
in the houston area we do flood
29:11
again
29:12
that next generation does not have to go
29:14
through the same issues
29:16
that the current generation did
29:18
so
29:19
just want to throw that out there and on
29:21
that
29:22
actually if i if i may um this is
29:24
actually something that i if you ever
29:26
talk to me in real life for more than
29:27
two minutes about pro bono and disaster
29:29
work you will hear this rant because um
29:31
i i think it's fantastic that after a
29:34
disaster like harvey lots of pro bono
29:36
attorneys want to volunteer i think it's
29:37
great and it's needed and it's helpful
29:39
but
29:41
some sometimes that aoh is super easy it
29:43
takes you you know half a day and you're
29:45
done and you've cleared title for a
29:47
person but if if you
29:49
in blue skies times in in no there is no
29:52
um hurricane in the gulf are doing a
29:55
little bit of that or even if you're not
29:57
super ready to do title clearing but you
30:00
want to do
30:01
um
30:02
like belinda mentioned if you want to do
30:04
transfer on death deed preparation so
30:06
that somebody doesn't end up in the mess
30:09
of not having clear title that is in my
30:12
opinion a far more necessary um
30:16
uh
30:17
use of pro bono time than um
30:20
even the fema appeals immediately posted
30:23
after so if you want to if you live
30:24
especially if you live in you know the
30:26
gulf coast or an area that gets hit by
30:27
disasters or you know dallas which gets
30:29
hit by tornadoes do
30:32
title clearing if you're able to um and
30:35
and will and todd's preparations to help
30:37
people not get in this mess and that is
30:40
a massive help to people um for disaster
30:43
prep
30:44
then for our clients in the gulf coast
30:46
make sure they put those documents in
30:47
that plastic uh bag to seal it well it
30:50
doesn't get away when there's a flood
30:51
yeah we've had that cle too amy i think
30:53
you had a question
30:55
i just wanted to point out that those
30:56
documents are easy to find too
30:58
um as a pro bono attorney if you don't
31:00
know where to find them you can
31:02
certainly you know look around but
31:03
they're easy to find easy to execute
31:05
clearly to understand
31:07
um and i love the way that hannah was
31:09
putting it it's you know kind of the
31:11
put in a penny now and it's worth a
31:13
pound later
31:15
um
31:15
way more helpful to get that done
31:17
beforehand and explain to people why
31:19
that's so important because they do they
31:21
think that the husband dies the wife
31:22
automatically gets the house and that's
31:24
not necessarily the case
31:26
so yeah an ounce of prevention is that
31:28
the old saying
31:30
i would also like to add for our
31:32
volunteers texas disaster legal help
31:35
uh does have a knowledge resource
31:37
library which we do have those documents
31:38
available as well as instructions and
31:41
pro tips on filling them out and filing
31:43
them
31:45
if i can um put this in an even broader
31:48
context too it the need to clear title
31:52
is so important for disaster survivors
31:55
not just for fema that's just usually
31:56
the first front where we're addressing
31:59
it and their eligibility for home repair
32:00
assistance but um in those situations
32:03
we're looking at what are fema's
32:04
standards how can we most efficiently
32:06
help them meet that
32:08
standard but then beyond that um if they
32:11
only get
32:12
you know a limited amount from fema they
32:14
might be eligible for
32:16
um for i'm sorry disaster assistance
32:18
from other entities other federal
32:20
funding streams or other local programs
32:23
and so the standards for each of those
32:25
programs we might not know right after
32:27
the disaster occurs we might know a year
32:30
later when they're written as they're
32:32
finally getting around to distributing
32:33
funds that came through a different
32:35
funding stream but there are just
32:37
multiple scenarios where disaster
32:39
survivors who are seeking assistance
32:41
with
32:42
home repair funds or assistance in kind
32:45
repairs or even replacement of their
32:47
home have to demonstrate title so i
32:49
think that's a good point you know
32:51
attorneys can
32:52
help with the fema appeals and that's
32:55
quick assistance the clients as needed
32:57
but man even if you can't get them past
32:59
some of these hurdles in the fema appeal
33:02
to the extent you can remain engaged and
33:04
help them sort out the title issues it
33:05
might pay dividends later with the
33:07
different program so
33:09
and
33:10
you know i'm
33:12
uh
33:13
kind of jumping off of that
33:15
um i did want to kind of circle back to
33:17
how this is an equity issue because
33:19
tracy mentioned that in kind of our
33:20
introduction why this is
33:22
has to do with equity and i think what
33:25
tracy just pointed out really highlights
33:28
um
33:29
how this is you know a racial
33:31
equity issue
33:33
um so
33:34
like tracy said
33:35
those those big programs with like big
33:38
rebuilds usually do come further down
33:40
the line but those are the programs that
33:43
really get people
33:45
back to where they were pre-disaster
33:46
fema is great and it comes quickly and
33:49
allows you know for the people who can
33:52
get it it allows you know things
33:55
to you know damage to start being
33:57
repaired but
33:59
you know fema will tell you themselves
34:00
that they're not intended to get you
34:02
back to the the place you were before
34:05
the disaster it's just supposed to make
34:07
your house livable not
34:09
back to where you were so the people who
34:11
really recover completely and go on
34:14
about normal life are the ones who i
34:16
mean a have insurance and can navigate
34:18
that successfully or b end up getting
34:20
assistance from one of these rebuild
34:22
programs where you just get a new house
34:24
and you get actually put back on your
34:25
feet
34:26
and those are the ones that it's much
34:29
harder to wiggle around
34:31
the
34:32
ownership standard for most of those
34:34
programs um which i think is what tracy
34:36
was saying a minute ago for fema you can
34:39
kind of push around it with what we've
34:41
talked about already if you can show
34:42
you're not a renter um
34:44
and that you or that you don't pay rent
34:47
and that you do pay for maintenance um
34:50
you can you can get the fema assistance
34:52
but that is
34:53
almost certainly not going to cut it for
34:56
charities for um big uh
35:00
rebuild projects that come down the line
35:02
so the people who recover are the ones
35:05
who do actually have clear title and
35:08
um as we know
35:10
and you can you know find research out
35:12
here out there to support this um
35:15
the people who
35:16
are able to get clear title are
35:17
typically wealthier white individuals
35:20
you know low-income individuals are
35:22
typically are disproportionately black
35:24
and brown people and it is more much
35:26
more difficult for them to get clear
35:28
title for a host of reasons partially
35:30
because um you know systemic racism in
35:33
this country has pushed black and brown
35:35
people into poverty so it's harder for
35:37
them to afford attorneys and then a lot
35:39
of the heirship property cases where
35:40
title hasn't been cleared since 1910
35:43
that happened because a black family
35:45
owned a house in 1910 and was not able
35:48
you can you can kind of use your
35:49
imagination to think about what going
35:51
through a title clearing process would
35:54
have been for a black family in 1910. so
35:57
it they this they've ended up in this
35:59
mess because of the racial inequity that
36:01
we have in this country um and so
36:05
working with those individuals to try to
36:07
get clear title
36:09
so that when the big projects come down
36:11
they can get a rebuilt house um that's
36:14
how this is a racial equity issue i feel
36:16
like sometimes people it's hard for them
36:18
to make that connection but that that um
36:21
is how racial equity and disaster relief
36:24
are kind of connected
36:28
absolutely um
36:30
thank you for hitting on that because i
36:32
kind of that's one of my soap boxes too
36:34
so thank you for mentioning that
36:37
and like you said it's a racial inequity
36:39
issue and then they don't necessarily
36:41
make the process very easy
36:43
um i always like to tell people i ended
36:45
up working at the disaster relief unit
36:47
for lone star because i was a harvey
36:50
survivor
36:51
i'm an attorney my husband has a
36:53
doctorate in physics
36:55
we were having problems with the process
36:57
and then i was looking to my neighbors
36:58
to my right and left and i was getting
37:00
full funds they were not well why
37:04
and i lived in a predominantly hispanic
37:06
neighborhood so there was language
37:07
issues there was education issues we had
37:09
heirship property in our neighborhood
37:11
because it's an older neighborhood
37:13
and it
37:14
yeah
37:15
i quit the oag and joined lone star let's
37:17
just put it that way
37:20
um but one thing i did want to and you
37:23
may have mentioned this but
37:25
let's say
37:26
you're going down the list and none of
37:28
the documents apply um what do you do
37:31
then is there a catch-all is there
37:33
something that could maybe save the
37:36
appeal
37:38
so um
37:39
i guess it doesn't go as
37:42
far as being a catch-all for everyone
37:44
but there are some people who will be
37:45
able to benefit from this if you go
37:46
through that whole list and you don't
37:49
have one of the named documents
37:51
um
37:52
a declared
37:54
statement from the individual can
37:56
suffice uh if we're talking about
37:58
ownership we're talking about people who
38:00
um
38:01
had a mobile home or a travel trailer
38:03
we're talking about people who lived in
38:05
certain types of environment like a
38:07
tribal lands or an insular
38:09
environment where it could be harder to
38:10
come up with traditional forms of title
38:14
and then for the heirship property issues
38:16
that we were just describing
38:18
that is one of the other scenarios where
38:20
this
38:21
declared statement could be sufficient i
38:23
think it's still somewhat tricky because
38:26
you have to explain why you don't have
38:28
anything else on the long list of things
38:31
that could be demonstrated but if
38:33
they're um if the analysis you know you
38:36
really don't have any of that you've got
38:37
a good explanation as to why and why you
38:39
should still be considered to meet
38:40
fema's definition then fema is now at
38:43
least explicitly saying that declared
38:45
statement could be sufficient and um
38:48
they had not gone as far as saying that
38:50
in the past before this was published a
38:52
couple of months ago so we're glad for
38:53
that for the scenarios where that
38:56
that's available
39:00
okay you notice at the beginning of the
39:01
hour that fema used a different approach
39:03
to announce these changes can you say
39:05
more about that explain that
41:03
sure so when we heard about the changes
41:06
that took place in september
41:08
of this year
41:09
i got to see the memo that fema had sent
41:11
out internally describing what the
41:13
changes were but also the same day fema
41:16
published on its website
41:18
a memo and fact sheet describing what
41:20
the changes were and explained chapter
41:22
and verse how this was actually going to
41:24
be
41:25
superseding sections in its current
41:28
version of the iapug that individual
41:30
assistance program policy guide
41:32
we have not seen it done that way before
41:34
for
41:35
you know the better part of two decades
41:38
what we would see instead
41:40
was clients affected by something that
41:42
we couldn't quite explain and we would
41:44
have to just share information with
41:46
other advocates and ask questions and do
41:50
trial and error on different cases to
41:52
try to discern what the patterns were to
41:54
understand that a policy change may have
41:56
happened
41:57
it just was so piecemeal it wasn't a
41:59
good approach to be able to try to
42:01
advocate for our clients but it was all
42:03
we had
42:04
and so
42:06
in the past we've even seen that we
42:08
couldn't fully rely on that program
42:11
policy guide when it was published on
42:12
fema's website because um just as an
42:15
example in october of 2018 when there
42:19
were some statutory changes because of
42:21
the disaster recovery reform act
42:25
those changes were not
42:27
included in the program policy guide so
42:30
we knew for
42:32
over a year that the policies that were
42:34
published that we had to rely on didn't
42:37
fit with the statutes and so we just
42:39
knew we had to kind of guess as to how
42:41
some of this was actually working in
42:43
practice so
42:44
i was really encouraged that fema was
42:47
transparent in
42:48
notifying the public about this on their
42:51
website so that for instance people
42:53
who've been affected by the hurricane
42:55
that affected louisiana in late august
42:58
were actually going to be able to see
43:00
these standards that would control at
43:03
least
43:04
how occupancy or ownership verification
43:07
was going to work for them so um just
43:09
that's really new and we're hoping that
43:11
as part of what fema is voicing as a
43:15
greater commitment to equity that we're
43:16
going to see this greater commitment to
43:18
transparency as well
43:20
um i will note we
43:22
still have some concerns about that um
43:24
one of the issues that trla has spent um
43:27
some time focused on in the last 15
43:30
years or so it's been the subject of
43:31
multiple lawsuits um against fema on
43:34
behalf of our client um
43:38
in the valley and individual clients
43:40
is um we don't know
43:43
what standards fema is currently using
43:45
to decide what is and isn't disaster
43:47
related damage so i'm just going to
43:49
point this out because we still
43:51
believe there are unpublished standards
43:54
that fema is actually using to make
43:56
those decisions
43:58
and you can comb through the statute the
44:01
regs the policy guide that's online
44:04
other things on fema's website
44:07
you will not find
44:09
um
44:10
those standards in a way that would
44:12
allow you to help a client understand
44:14
whether their home is going to be found
44:16
to have disaster-related damage or not
44:18
that causation question is still very
44:20
muddy and so we actually still have some
44:22
pending litigation against fema seeking
44:25
more transparency um about what
44:27
standards are being used to determine
44:29
that how inspections are being done
44:32
um
44:32
and
44:33
submitted foia requests on that issue
44:36
with very limited uh responses so
44:39
there's there's still a lot of ground to
44:41
cover here there's still concerns about
44:44
how equitable all this is for disaster
44:46
survivors
44:48
but we are encouraged by these recent
44:50
developments and hope that you know
44:52
maybe we'll see a memo and publication
44:54
that's going to lay out some of those
44:56
standards that we're concerned about
44:58
that we haven't seen yet
45:00
that would be nice knowing what
45:01
standards the inspectors are using
45:03
because yes that's
45:05
we saw
45:06
just in my neighborhood alone
45:08
varying differences and sometimes same
45:10
inspectors sometimes different
45:12
inspectors one of the cases i first took
45:14
on was
45:15
one inspector said the home was not
45:17
habitable next inspector came along and
45:18
said it was and she hadn't done any
45:20
changes to the home
45:22
so yes any guidance in that area would
45:24
be greatly appreciated
45:27
absolutely
45:28
well to wrap up the hour since we are
45:30
kind of closing in how can volunteers
45:32
get more information about training
45:33
opportunities to get involved
45:36
so as we've noted from the
45:38
texas disaster legal help portal that
45:40
knowledge resource library
45:42
houses a variety of trainings by the
45:45
partners that i've collaborated on
45:47
that's the trla lone star legal aid and
45:49
legal aid of northwest texas
45:51
the state bar of texas also has a hub
45:54
for disaster and
45:57
provide related materials there are some
45:59
fema issues related to covid right now
46:00
particularly funeral benefits and so
46:03
there are some materials at those sites
46:04
as well and then both of those um places
46:07
in texas are helpful for volunteers who
46:10
want to find out about i'm sorry
46:11
opportunities to get involved and to
46:14
take cases
46:15
but there are also at times
46:18
opportunities for
46:20
texas lawyers to get involved in
46:21
disaster responses in other parts of the
46:24
nation um
46:26
when
46:27
uh there's a large-scale event um
46:30
it is not uncommon for
46:33
the highest court in that state to allow
46:36
out-of-state attorneys to get involved
46:38
and follow certain rules but in order to
46:40
provide help with when there's a sudden
46:42
volume of need somewhere so um texas
46:45
lawyers could look at those
46:46
opportunities and then um other
46:49
attorneys that might be listening to
46:50
this that are not based in texas but
46:52
want to help texas since we tend to have
46:54
so many declarations here um we've got
46:57
materials from other places too so
47:00
um i'll also note we've said a few times
47:02
what fema actually makes available so i
47:04
would certainly check that out on their
47:06
website for some of the things we're
47:07
talking about today you can see the
47:09
actual chapter and verse of the changes
47:11
there
47:13
i think also we've talked about disaster
47:15
time and blue sky time we are in a blue
47:17
sky time right now so don't think it's
47:19
all fema appeals and immediate uh
47:22
disaster recovery
47:24
um
47:25
and that's one thing i think sometimes
47:26
there's a misconception among disaster
47:28
pro bono attorneys that it's just fema
47:30
appeals title clearing
47:32
um but no it's like with the covid
47:33
disaster there's probate issues to think
47:36
about one of the first cases i took
47:38
it had been a year after harvey
47:41
she needed a divorce
47:42
because they divorced the
47:45
divorce decree was silent as far as the
47:47
house so technically they both stole the
47:50
house and he was nowhere to be found so
47:52
we had to figure out a way
47:54
to
47:55
um
47:56
fix that and in other cases they simply
47:58
had never gotten aboard so
48:00
my with my family law experience is why
48:01
i was hired for the disaster relief unit
48:03
because
48:04
while they were very good at what they
48:05
did no one had any family law experience
48:07
so if you're a probate lawyer if you're
48:09
a family lawyer if you're a bankruptcy
48:11
lawyer because
48:12
if you've listened to our lifecycle
48:14
disaster podcast
48:16
about six months to a year
48:18
bankruptcy because of all the financial
48:20
problems it caused so no matter what
48:22
your specialty is you may be surprised
48:24
there is going to be a case on our
48:26
website for you more than likely
48:30
that's right and then
48:32
i was going to say with that whole
48:34
disaster cycle as hannah was pointing
48:35
out disaster preparation fema has a role
48:38
in that lawyers have a role in that too
48:40
so there are all kinds of things we can
48:41
do to
48:42
help shore up our communities and help
48:45
the clients within them
48:47
be less likely to encounter some of the
48:49
disaster issues that happen afterwards
48:51
if we can take care of some of their
48:52
legal needs up front so
48:56
i just had one quick question we sort of
48:57
do things in different cycles i'm up in
48:59
the dallas area and so we have hail
49:00
storms in the spring and down in
49:04
houston and on the coast you all kind of
49:05
go through summer through fall into
49:08
hurricanes
49:09
is most of this done um
49:12
virtually so that lawyers in dallas
49:15
could help out with problems that take
49:17
place on the gulf and the other way
49:18
around so we can kind of have a
49:19
year-round flow going
49:23
absolutely um in general the fema cases
49:26
that i've worked on over time i've very
49:28
rarely worked with a client that's in
49:29
the same city as me um it you know can
49:32
be a little tricky but you just figure
49:34
out and i think especially now with the
49:36
pandemic where many more of us have been
49:37
working from home and having to kind of
49:39
get creative with different ways to
49:41
exchange documents and get signatures on
49:43
things and send it in we're in a much
49:45
better position to do that but i
49:46
definitely think that the remote
49:47
representation works well for this kind
49:49
of thing and um i also think it's a good
49:52
way for volunteers to continually be
49:55
involved in these issues if you're
49:57
waiting to do it when the disaster is
49:59
right in your legal community then you
50:01
get experience with it every once in a
50:03
while right hopefully hopefully our
50:05
disasters are not our
50:07
areas are not constantly affected by
50:09
disasters but if you develop this
50:12
expertise maybe because of something
50:14
happening in your own area that
50:16
knowledge is still going to be valuable
50:18
those skills are still going to be
50:19
really valuable to disaster survivors in
50:21
other parts of the state or
50:23
depending what's allowed
50:24
to others across the nation
50:28
and tracy hannah when um
50:31
you maybe have this experience already
50:32
so like maybe let's say our pro bono
50:34
attorney listening to this they're gonna
50:35
think about volunteering at our next
50:36
clinic when the disaster hits and
50:38
they're there to respond um in your
50:40
experience how do you communicate to the
50:42
client you know um because there might
50:45
be a need for translation from highly
50:46
technical legal aspect you know to like
50:48
the lay person what you need like what
50:50
that works with clients it makes me
50:52
think you know what okay i think i do
50:53
have that because maybe they don't
50:55
realize you know what they might have at
50:56
home how do you how do you
50:58
bridge that gap
51:02
and silence we don't what happened okay
51:06
hannah do you wanna okay i'll go ahead
51:07
and jump in um so it depends on what
51:09
legal argument we're making but let's
51:11
say that we're talking about somebody
51:12
who needs to demonstrate that the they
51:14
are the owner of their home and they're
51:15
going to rely on one of these things
51:16
today you know first it's just a matter
51:18
of i'm listening to their story what
51:20
facts i think are going to fit which of
51:22
those definitions that fema allows to
51:24
demonstrate owner occupancy is going to
51:26
fit for them and then i just try to
51:27
break it down for them um to explain
51:30
what i need i need the documents showing
51:33
you've made major repairs to your house
51:34
in the last five years what repairs have
51:36
you made have you had to fix this have
51:38
you had to fix that what do you already
51:40
have if it's lost you know can we get in
51:42
touch with the person who did those
51:44
repairs for you and maybe i can ask them
51:46
for it from their records so it just it
51:48
depends on what the facts are and what
51:50
evidence we're trying to seek but i try
51:52
to
51:53
help them navigate that as much as
51:54
possible i think it's important with the
51:56
disaster survivor that we make them feel
51:57
empowered too um this
52:00
is a fact that's important throughout
52:02
with disaster work but i don't know that
52:03
i've said it on this podcast yet so i
52:04
will just mention you know they're
52:06
navigating all kinds of bureaucracies
52:08
all at the same time they're working
52:09
with you to try to do something with
52:12
fema they might also be trying to show
52:14
stuff for their insurance company maybe
52:16
an sba disaster loan maybe the catholic
52:19
charities is going to help them with the
52:20
and so sometimes they don't know what
52:22
they're providing to who and why at any
52:23
given time so you know i'm very careful
52:26
to break down what i need from them i
52:28
also confirm it in writing
52:30
some of my clients may want to do that
52:32
by email other times i'm if they can
52:34
receive mail depending on their
52:35
circumstances i'm putting it in that so
52:38
they kind of a checklist i tell them the
52:40
deadline by when i need it um so it's
52:42
not
52:44
difficult stuff but i think that
52:46
careful client communication is just
52:49
really key here and making them feel
52:51
supported and empowered as you're
52:53
working with them
52:54
i can imagine i mean they probably even
52:56
had difficulty to get to like whatever
52:58
you know appointment you know to meet
52:59
their attorney if they can make it and
53:01
then you know to be asked to be the same
53:02
question 10 times over like why now it's
53:05
a different agency a different person
53:07
right and they also they also may have
53:10
changing um phone numbers and addresses
53:13
because while they're working to get
53:15
back in their home
53:16
or if they were a renter working to find
53:18
a new permanent you know rental unit
53:20
they may be staying with friends and
53:22
family and they may have um
53:24
different places that they may or may
53:26
not be able to receive mail they may
53:28
have lost their phone in the disaster um
53:30
and be using like you know minutes on
53:33
uh uh uh i forget what those are called
53:36
cricket cricket
53:38
yes trust me i know it's a nightmare of
53:40
a service
53:41
right and that number may be changing
53:44
fairly often so just
53:45
it's easy to get frustrated um but just
53:48
try to stay uh in touch with them and
53:51
and make sure you stress with them over
53:52
and over again to just let you know
53:53
whenever they change their number or
53:55
their address
53:59
also
54:00
you might want to think of
54:01
even if you aren't a fan of remote try
54:04
remote because a lot of our clients do
54:05
have transportation issues um
54:08
harris county is a big county uh they
54:10
can be right down the street but it
54:11
could be like two hours away and if you
54:13
don't have viable transportation coming
54:15
into the office to talk to you or sign
54:17
documents is just gonna be a burden too
54:19
far and they're just gonna stop
54:20
returning your calls
54:22
so
54:23
just be aware we also have a podcast on
54:25
that on representing legal aid clients
54:27
some of the pitfalls and pro tips for
54:29
that
54:30
so
54:31
um
54:31
pablo uh amy did you have any further
54:33
questions
54:34
um belinda you know how to sell the
54:36
website i'm telling you man i mean like
54:37
we've got this you've got that you're
54:38
ready to go
54:40
telling you she got a timeshare on that
54:42
that is my job after all
54:44
sorry amy
54:46
no this has been very helpful i mean
54:47
it's uh it's one of those things that
54:48
whenever i think of fema coming from
54:50
south louisiana i think of trailers and
54:53
that's as far as my mind goes as they
54:55
help you get
54:57
put up overnight and you think okay i
54:59
had a house i was living here can you
55:00
just put me in a trailer
55:02
and that's really it's not that simple
55:07
so it's been very yeah you know we did a
55:10
time some time ago we did a video on
55:12
will's uh you know and estates and
55:14
planning for that we did in spanish in
55:15
english and then we're doing like the
55:16
script for that
55:18
uh and we talked about you know the
55:20
client you know what do you want to keep
55:21
your document in a safe place
55:23
uh and then i and then the other person
55:24
would say oh that's good cause i was
55:25
gonna bury it in my backyard and we
55:27
started laughing about that and one of
55:28
the trainers was like actually that's
55:29
happened to me that's what i'm saying
55:31
because like there's somebody out there
55:32
buried in the backyard in some kind of
55:34
like box i thought it was secure because
55:36
nobody would find it there
55:37
like yeah don't do that
55:40
no that's easy advice
55:42
yeah
55:43
so i also i would say let other people
55:45
know where those documents are in case
55:47
you know you do get injured in the storm
55:49
or
55:50
goodness forbid pass
55:52
your heirs can find those documents one
55:53
of the first probate cases i did
55:55
went through a full intestate probate
55:58
guy called me a year later he found the
55:59
will in a shoe box on the second shelf
56:01
of the garage
56:03
so please
56:04
of course documents that's the standard
56:07
place to keep it right in the shoebox on
56:09
the second shelf in the garage
56:11
i'll remember that
56:14
okay
56:15
i think we're done here right unless
56:17
there's anything more you want to add
56:18
now hannah tracy
56:21
no
56:22
cool
56:23
then i think we're done thank you so
56:24
much for your time it's very very
56:25
informative information very uh you know
56:28
also time you know relevant because this
56:30
recently happened and we when you heard
56:32
about it you know the group
56:34
uh about these changes like we really
56:35
want to have a cleo on this to get this
56:36
going so thank you all again for doing
56:38
this thank you all for being here on a
56:40
friday afternoon now enjoy your weekend
56:42
and you know
56:45
so often when we get these updates
56:46
they're not good
56:48
you know like they just change the rent
56:50
relief and and everybody's totally
56:52
flipping out it's so reassuring to hear
56:54
something coming out that's good and
56:56
helpful and addresses some of the
56:58
problems y'all have been encountering so
57:00
um that's the best word of all on a late
57:02
on a friday afternoon so thanks for that
57:05
thank you amy
57:07
okay bye guys