TDLH Podcast welcomes Claude DuCloux, former Chair of the Board of Trustees for the Texas Center of Legal Ethics and Professionalism. He will cover topics such as the new conflict of interest rules for legal aid and pro bono attorneys, attorney-client relationship, and barratry issues. CLE Ethics Hours Available!
Visit our website at https://texasdisasterlegalhelp.org for more information.
Music Credit: Track: Travel With Us — Vendredi [Audio Library Release] Music provided by Audio Library Plus Watch: https://youtu.be/o-rpKzt4KSY Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/travel-us
TDLH Podcast welcomes Claude DuCloux, former Chair of the Board of Trustees for the Texas Center of Legal Ethics and Professionalism. He will cover topics such as the new conflict of interest rules for legal aid and pro bono attorneys, attorney-client relationship, and barratry issues. CLE Ethics Hours Available!
Visit our website at https://texasdisasterlegalhelp.org for more information.
Music Credit: Track: Travel With Us — Vendredi [Audio Library Release] Music provided by Audio Library Plus Watch: https://youtu.be/o-rpKzt4KSY Free Download / Stream: https://alplus.io/travel-us
Ethical Concerns During a Disaster
With Claude Decloux
00:04
okay well thank you um uh Claude again
00:07
for being here and part of this uh
00:08
project and for doing this you
00:10
really appreciate it and it's just so
00:12
appropriate to come to you at this time
00:13
because we just had
00:14
uh attorneys about a referendum of
00:18
i think the first time in like 15-20
00:20
years
00:21
it was 25 yeah before since we voted on
00:25
rules
00:26
and the last attempt i remembered it
00:29
fondly because i was the chair of the
00:31
board of directors
00:32
and how that went down in flames but we
00:34
learned from that
00:35
and now you all done a great job at the
00:37
cdr and the
00:38
the commission that you're a part of and
00:41
one of the rules you know that was
00:42
approved was the new rule 6.05 they
00:45
wanted to ask you about because it
00:46
pertains to exactly the pro bonos and
00:48
that's how
00:49
to screen for conflict of interest in
00:50
certain placements and I wanted to see
00:52
if you can let us know more about the
00:54
rulings application and mechanics or pro
00:56
bono attorneys know about it
00:58
sure yeah yeah thank you for asking me
00:59
this is such a joy to do this
01:01
if you don't mind uh folks let me go
01:03
back about a minute or two
01:05
give you a little bit of the background
01:06
of doing this you know
01:08
as paolo said back in 2011 there was
01:11
a package of rules that we voted on and
01:13
back then that was under the old law
01:14
where you had to get 51%
01:16
well you can't get 51% of the lawyers to
01:19
agree that there is air in the
01:21
atmosphere
01:22
so um it was this was under the new
01:25
statute so all of this is done under
01:27
this new statute that came out of the
01:28
last
01:29
um remodeling state bar in 2017. they
01:32
said look we got to fix this so we can
01:34
normally
01:35
fix these disciplinaries and bring them
01:36
up to date so they created the
01:38
you know committee on disciplinary rules
01:40
and referenda in 2017
01:42
and I got a call on December 30th from
01:45
the supreme court's uh you know
01:47
the attorney who does the appointments
01:49
and said uh supreme court wants to know
01:51
if you want an appointment to this will
01:52
you agree to appoint for three years on
01:53
this
01:54
and i said sure i had no idea what they
01:56
was talking about maybe i thought i'd be
01:57
making pickles or something
01:59
but anyway and now i'm on my second
02:01
three year term now the whole point of
02:03
this whole committee and we're gonna get
02:04
i promise i'll get to this rule
02:06
is to normalize the process of improving
02:09
and
02:11
modernizing our disciplinary rules so
02:13
this first three years
02:14
and getting to this vote which you just
02:17
did during the month of march
02:19
was very very important to put realistic
02:22
good rules that are great for lawyers
02:25
all over the state the good rules that
02:26
would have
02:27
new tools as i call it for your attorney
02:29
tool kit
02:30
and one of them is is this item uh d
02:33
which i'll get to again in another 30
02:35
seconds but we wanted to
02:37
put this out there so that lawyers get
02:39
used to
02:41
maybe um improving six new rules every
02:44
two or three years so that this is not a
02:46
big 25-year event it's going to be a
02:48
normalization process and
02:50
again we i think we did a pretty good
02:52
job
02:53
in doing tons of i probably did
02:56
18 cles to every bar from midland bar to
02:59
texarkana
03:00
just to explain the rules so we didn't
03:02
have any organized uh
03:04
opposition to any of these rules and
03:06
they passed from the lawyers that voted
03:08
by about 90% some of them passed at 95%
03:11
percent the
03:12
uh the general rules about uh you know
03:15
advertising and there are some pro bono
03:17
things in there that we have to discuss
03:18
too
03:19
where the is only passed by like 79%
03:22
which was still a vast majority but
03:25
overall only one of five of you actually
03:28
voted so if we had the 51% rule we would
03:31
have gone down in flames but
03:32
it was a huge success and I slept better
03:35
because I thought boy if this doesn't
03:37
work
03:37
we're just they're just going to say
03:39
fine you lawyers cannot regulate
03:41
yourselves
03:42
you're too stupid and you don't care
03:44
enough to
03:45
to vote so but this worked and we got at
03:48
least 20%
03:49
and they overwhelmingly passed it well
03:51
let's turn to this was called ballot
03:53
item
03:53
D and this actually arose out of
03:55
hurricane Harvey
03:57
and a bunch of lawyers from bigger law
03:59
firms and and
04:01
just so you know my background i i've
04:03
done a ton of pro bono work i was
04:05
very grateful i got the the uh
04:08
the award the state bar highest award
04:10
way back in 2001 for pro bono and
04:12
i've been very grateful for that the
04:14
frank newton award
04:16
and um so but i've been a prosecutor for
04:18
two and a half years and i was with a
04:20
small law firm in in austin where I got
04:22
a ton of trial work in the net for the
04:23
next seven and a half years, I got board
04:25
certified both civil trials
04:27
got recruited by a huge national firm
04:29
which I hated I was only there two years
04:31
and then I started my own from
04:33
hill ducloux carnes & de la garza
04:35
and we were together for the next 26 and
04:36
a half years until I went off and
04:39
doing this specialized sort of practice
04:42
but um so I’ve really experienced
04:45
all of this stuff trying to do pro bono
04:47
work now the big firm lawyers
04:49
are look I’d love to do pro bono but if
04:51
I go down there and give some tenant
04:54
some advice on how to avoid eviction and
04:56
it turns out the person trying to evict
04:58
is a a client of my firm
05:02
I’ll make up a name texas realty is the
05:04
is the
05:05
you know landlord and I go give this guy
05:08
advice on it
05:09
do I conflict out my firm that was the
05:11
whole fear
05:13
and not only that as many of you may
05:15
have already experienced there are
05:16
people that come in
05:17
deliberately to try to conflict you out
05:20
they'll come in there and give you a
05:22
line of bs about how they do this this
05:24
and the other thing and then when you go
05:26
to help a really meaty qualified person
05:29
they go oh you already talked to me you
05:31
can't do that
05:32
so what this rule does is a new uh rule
05:35
605 and it narrows
05:37
the range that you can call conflicts of
05:40
interest
05:41
and it says as long as you're doing
05:43
limited pro bono services
05:45
you're allowed to exempt yourself from
05:48
conflict now
05:49
what does that mean under this new rule
05:51
number one it's provided through a real
05:53
pro bono uh or assisted pro se program
05:56
I just can't call myself the Claude Decloux
05:59
pro bono project
06:01
and use this rule I got to be part of
06:04
legal aid I’ve got to be part of texas
06:06
trla something like that that that gives
06:08
me that sponsorship
06:10
and it's typically as you know I used to
06:12
go on Mondays and Wednesdays short-term
06:14
stuff now
06:14
I always ended up just taking somebody
06:17
they needed well I just here's my card
06:18
just call me and I’ll come to your wills
06:21
uh short term advice uh brief assistance
06:24
pro se documents how to use these how to
06:27
do these transactions
06:28
either in person or by phone it can be
06:30
on hotline it can be on
06:31
internet it can be now on video
06:33
conferencing I’m so
06:34
pleased um the one
06:37
one of you know perhaps good things
06:40
that this whole pandemic has done
06:41
is it let us uh adopt video conferencing
06:45
it loud
06:46
uh lpc’s psychology psychologist uh
06:49
counselors now
06:50
can legitimately do video conferencing
06:52
because
06:53
they had to do it during this pandemic
06:55
so that's we can do that and
06:57
of course when you do that so we called
06:59
it it's a real agency
07:00
you're doing it short term and it's
07:03
without any expectation of extended
07:06
representation or uh of the limited
07:08
assistance that you're giving that that
07:10
client
07:11
uh the next thing is that so that
07:14
paragraph A of this new rule
07:15
605 exempts you the pro bono lawyer from
07:19
compliance with
07:21
the disciplinary rules of conduct about
07:24
conflict of interest concerning your
07:27
clients
07:28
your former clients your firm's clients
07:31
etc and even if you're just serving as
07:34
an intermediary
07:35
except with one very logical exception
07:39
and that is
07:40
if you know you have a conflict if you
07:43
work
07:44
and do stuff for texas realty and the
07:47
guy comes in and says I’m being evicted
07:49
by texas realty
07:50
you can't like look both ways and say
07:52
okay here's what you do
07:55
you can't do that obviously but as long
07:57
as you know if something could be just
07:59
another firm client you don't even know
08:01
about these big firms have clients you
08:02
don't know and you're giving those
08:03
limited services you're not taking them
08:05
in as a case because if you do I mean
08:07
you can but of course if you're a
08:09
big firm you're going to then have to
08:10
run the conflict's check and you'll file
08:12
you'll find out then
08:13
but if whatever you tell that lawyer and
08:16
know that
08:17
what that lawyer excuse me with that
08:19
client and what that pro bono client
08:21
tells you will not be imputed that's the
08:25
word
08:26
that you want it won't be imputed to the
08:28
lawyer's firm
08:29
as long as the certain steps are are
08:32
taken
08:33
to do that um all right now go ahead you
08:36
have a question pablo
08:37
uh yeah claude i do that so i don't make
08:39
the point here because you know this
08:40
website and the project we're doing this
08:42
for is for placement of cases and pro
08:44
bono extended services but
08:46
there actually is a phenomenon that we
08:47
have whenever a disaster hits we have a
08:50
great outpouring of volunteers work there
08:52
you know what can i do and so these
08:53
legal clinics
08:54
at the very first beginning of disaster
08:56
recovery pop up you know where the bars
08:59
get together local bar associations and
09:00
send an army of people to
09:02
corpus or to like the harvey hit areas
09:04
when harvey hit
09:05
and i think what you are telling us
09:07
here for those clinics brief advice sit
09:09
down quickly review matters
09:10
this rule applies so that you can go
09:12
over there without having to worry about
09:13
the contract it's not about the extended
09:14
services
09:15
it's these quick ones you can do right
09:17
it's it's the the
09:19
the clinics that we go to from seven to
09:20
ten o'clock on monday nights and
09:22
typically like i say I usually end up
09:23
taking
09:24
somebody that's in an area that I know
09:26
how to do it but typically I’ll go in
09:28
there and give them just
09:29
clinic advice and and i'm always aware
09:31
that if something will rise later i
09:33
would never reveal that client's
09:34
confidences
09:35
or anything like that and that's what
09:36
it's mean it's just you don't have
09:38
here's the benefit you don't have the
09:40
risk that somebody's going to try to
09:42
you can be in a big firm and you can go
09:44
to these clinics and you don't have a
09:45
risk that somebody's going to conflict
09:47
you out as long as you are not
09:48
personally aware of that client now
09:51
there's let me also say all of these
09:53
rules I learned a lot about rulemaking
09:56
and you don't explain the rule
09:57
in the rule so there will be comments uh
10:00
that there will be comments that we uh
10:04
will write for the supreme court to
10:06
promulgate and those don't require both
10:07
lawyers to
10:08
to vote on them so this provision
10:11
in various forms has already been um
10:14
adopted
10:16
by the aba model rules and in 48 states
10:18
so texas
10:19
as usual is behind the curve
10:22
in adopting this rule so it was an easy
10:25
one to recommend and publish
10:28
any other questions on that well I think
10:30
that actually covers what we need
10:32
to hear on this rule and it's a perfect
10:33
recruitment tool that we have because we
10:34
had that issue before uh
10:36
bankruptcy issues employment issues the
10:37
big firms like you know how can I run my
10:39
checks before I go to these clinics or
10:41
these larger firms I think you just told
10:43
them now that you're okay unless you have
10:44
a direct conflict with it absolutely
10:46
so I think Belinda has a question on the
10:48
another aspect we see that might
10:50
be beyond the rules we wanted to have
10:51
you talk about
10:52
uh let me turn it over to you thank you
10:55
pablo
10:56
um after disaster um
11:00
we do as pablo said we do see a lot more
11:03
clients they have a myriad (mir-re-ad
11:05
of legal issues uh one of them is they
11:08
get solicited by contractors but they
11:10
also start getting solicited by
11:13
lawyers um so I just kind of wanted to
11:15
go into
11:17
when does that advertisement
11:18
solicitation crosses over into barratry
11:21
how to spot it and then who to report it
11:23
to if you see it
11:25
okay let's go um to what we did too and
11:28
let me go through a couple of sections
11:30
of new uh rules 701 through 706.
11:33
now remember those um typically your
11:36
people that are doing pro bono aren't
11:38
going to know the advertising rules
11:39
because they don't advertise
11:40
but those that was the old section we
11:42
had rules 701 through 707
11:44
and we said there's no way we can
11:46
retrofit we completely
11:48
obliterated all seven rules and started
11:51
from scratch
11:52
now uh vince johnson professor at um
11:55
st mary's and amy bresnan uh a young
11:59
attorney
11:59
here in austin uh we were the the three
12:01
of us we worked for 20
12:03
months on these rules
12:05
to start from scratch and what we did
12:08
and how it affects pro bono is the
12:10
following first of all
12:11
the big overarching principle for these
12:14
whole all these advertising rules
12:16
is to look at whether or not whatever is
12:17
being said or represents
12:20
we don't care where it comes from if it
12:22
comes from the sky if it comes from the
12:23
ground
12:24
if it's false or misleading it's going
12:25
to violate these rules
12:27
the next thing we did we'd we made a
12:30
clear and brightline distinction between
12:32
advertising versus solicitation and
12:35
quite frankly that simply is this and
12:37
it's easy to understand
12:39
advertising is something you throw out
12:41
into the universe
12:42
it's a I put it in a newspaper I put it
12:45
in a magazine
12:46
I put it in my church bulletin I put it
12:48
in my something
12:49
you know it I don't know who's going to
12:51
read it solicitation
12:53
think of me pointing at your nose I want
12:56
you to hire me
12:58
solicitation is a targeted communication
13:01
and belinda this is funny um that you
13:03
should mention this especially because
13:05
I’m thinking of all
13:06
uh the windstorm cases which is a huge
13:09
area in texas of solicitation by
13:12
lawyers and law firms um uh but just by
13:17
I don't know when this is gonna but i
13:18
was telling you a little story that just
13:19
two days ago less than two days ago
13:21
thursday morning this is friday
13:22
afternoon
13:23
we had our first big heavy hail storm
13:26
here in austin by that was at four in
13:28
the morning and it was luckily over very
13:30
quickly by 4:10 but
13:31
by 9 am I already got a telephone call
13:34
telling me I needed my roof
13:36
inspected it so I could hire somebody so
13:39
it's
13:39
way more popular than I ever expected so
13:42
I think that's what we're
13:44
we're doing so let's talk about that uh
13:47
solicitation
13:48
is perfectly okay by
13:51
um pro bono agencies and I know that's
13:55
not your question yet but I promise
13:56
to get and I promise to get your
13:58
question because remember
13:59
under these new rules any advertising or
14:03
solicitation has to be targeted towards
14:06
pecuniary gain you're looking to make
14:08
money
14:09
if you're looking simply to help someone
14:11
to advise them of their rights
14:13
to help them with their medicare to help
14:15
them you know do something from an
14:17
official
14:18
pro bono agency you're safe and secure
14:21
these don't apply to you now remember
14:23
again just like what we talked about
14:24
earlier
14:25
it's got to be a real pro bono agency it
14:27
can't be the claude decloux
14:29
you know pro bono agency because i
14:31
intend to do it for free unless i can
14:32
make money off
14:33
um you know so it's got to be a real pro
14:36
bono
14:37
agency for doing that so
14:41
we also allow you to contact experienced
14:44
users of like, for example, we know in
14:46
texas we preserved that rule
14:48
we wrote it that if i'm targeting you if
14:50
I write stuart campbell and I say stuart
14:53
I think you had an accident and I’d like
14:55
to help you with your car accident
14:57
because I’m good at this
14:58
and I’ll make you some money well I have
15:00
to put in there
15:01
this is an advertisement this is
15:03
solicitation
15:04
however if you're in a firm that does
15:07
insurance defense you're allowed to
15:09
write to aetna and say
15:11
the Claude Decloux firm has five
15:12
insurance defense lawyers and we'd love
15:14
to have an interview with you and we
15:15
think we can
15:16
you know uh render services to you
15:19
because aetna is an
15:20
experienced user of legal services i
15:22
don't have to put that now
15:24
let's see how this let's go through what
15:26
your question was belinda
15:29
if someone contacts you now remember
15:32
it's
15:32
okay where there's a new opinion that
15:34
says if they're at a booth
15:36
at a flea market and they say come talk
15:38
to us
15:39
about wind storm damage as long as
15:41
you're not reaching out to anybody
15:43
they have to come to you that's still uh
15:46
legitimate
15:47
but if you're getting telephone calls
15:49
saying we think you were damaged
15:51
we'll send somebody out our firm will do
15:53
good that's a direct solicitation and
15:55
live contact is not allowed
15:59
we've expanded that not only to
16:01
telephone calls which are live
16:02
contact but live interactive contact so
16:07
emails that come to you directly that
16:09
you could respond to in a second
16:11
those are banned too facebook contacts
16:14
all those sorts of things are now
16:16
expanded remember
16:17
social media wasn't even a term it was
16:20
invented in 2003
16:22
so back in 1995 when they came up with
16:24
advertising rules there was no such
16:25
thing we called it
16:26
internet contact because we hadn't even
16:29
invented the
16:30
the term so um those sorts of things
16:34
are not permitted so when you get that
16:36
call
16:37
that person that comes into your clinic
16:39
gets that call
16:40
uh they should be re-routed to the chief
16:43
disciplinary counsel's office
16:45
um who the firm was who was reaching out
16:48
to them
16:49
and let them uh take it from there now
16:52
also i am not as well-schooled in barratry
16:55
but i
16:55
that statute out there is burdensome and
16:58
brutal if you get
16:59
caught because remember if you reach out
17:03
and you violate the barratry
17:04
as you as an attorney I’m not talking
17:06
about any of your staff or your people
17:08
but
17:08
a lawyer who reaches out to barratry
17:10
even though they reach out to me and say
17:12
I want to hire you because I heard you
17:13
went through a hail storm I want you to
17:15
hire me
17:15
um I can sue them for barratry even if i
17:18
never signed a contract
17:20
the fines and the penalties and
17:22
everything are there even when i
17:24
never signed a contract so they've tried
17:26
to make it
17:27
very um very very burdensome for you
17:31
to reach out without authority to
17:33
someone to get them
17:34
to hire you yes Stuart you have a
17:37
question so I have a question about this
17:38
and this is gonna this is actually
17:39
something that's come up and talking to
17:41
other pro bono attorneys who've
17:42
volunteered for legal aid and it happens
17:45
a lot of times to my own personal
17:46
clients too
17:47
uh I represent people in evictions i
17:49
represent people in consumer debt issues
17:51
and we also can do stuff in municipal um
17:54
uh violations civil violations for code
17:56
violation stuff like that
17:57
and so a lot of times these a lot a lot
18:00
of
18:01
large law firms will somehow comb those
18:03
databases the court records and
18:05
and send targeted stuff, hey you were
18:07
sued here's your cause number
18:08
for this debt collection suit um
18:12
for a flat fee we can do this so
18:15
can you walk me through that do they
18:16
have to say explicitly it's it's an
18:18
advertisement because
18:20
my client will receive it and a lot of
18:22
times our clients are the most aren't
18:23
the most savvy or
18:24
or uh uh well informed on the legal uh
18:27
realm and so they'll be like oh I got
18:29
four attorneys who want to
18:30
represent me why do I need this legal
18:31
aid attorney
18:33
why do I need this pro bono attorney
18:34
thank you for bringing that up, Stuart i
18:36
was actually
18:37
that's where I was going to because we
18:39
have so many clients that have given
18:41
thousands of dollars to these attorneys
18:42
before they find us
18:43
so it's like that debt collector you
18:46
know
18:46
don't pay us and it's a scam
18:50
and also between lawyers basically
18:52
lawyers that promote
18:53
unbundled services they are to be
18:56
avoided by with all costs
18:58
that's just you're throwing your money
18:59
away um
19:01
that's Claude on it I’m not an official
19:03
spokesman for anybody but Claude Decloux
19:05
with 44 years as a lawyer
19:06
and I’m telling you those unbundled
19:08
services are nothing but
19:11
trouble um so let's look at
19:14
to answer that question let's look at
19:16
rule 705.
19:17
the short answer to both your questions
19:19
is yes they have to say
19:21
this is an advertisement I want you to
19:24
hire me
19:25
the here are the exceptions 705e says
19:28
here the people you can call
19:30
without um putting down that it's an
19:33
advertisement
19:34
right um existing or former clients
19:37
that person they're reaching out to that
19:39
doesn't do
19:40
other lawyers or professionals that
19:42
client the reason that doesn't follow
19:44
that
19:44
person's known by the lawyer to be
19:47
experienced users like we talked about
19:49
your clients aren't experienced users
19:53
of legal services uh they can reach out
19:56
to members of non-profit
19:58
organizations who have asked them to
20:01
reach out to them
20:03
you can't just reach out to a non-profit
20:05
uh without you you can but you have to
20:06
put it's an advertisement
20:08
if the nonprofit says hey we're
20:10
delighted if you will
20:11
uh you know you know reach out to us
20:15
when you think there's something that
20:16
in the law that we might benefit from or
20:19
finally
20:20
and with most logically if that person
20:23
has asked you to reach out to them
20:25
those are the five categories I’ll say
20:27
them again existing and former clients
20:29
other lawyers persons known by the
20:31
lawyer to
20:32
to use legal services members of a
20:35
a non-profit who have asked to be um
20:38
sent information and persons who have
20:40
asked to receive
20:41
notifications from you otherwise that
20:44
you still have to put on this is a this
20:46
is an advertisement we're trying to get
20:48
you to
20:48
hire us in in prominently display but i
20:52
i see and they're very
20:54
um I had a cousin in Los Angeles
20:57
who was in a lift accident she uber and
21:00
Lyft and
21:00
had an accident she said by the time she
21:03
got home that night
21:05
someone had and this firm in Los Angeles
21:07
this we specialize in uber and Lyft
21:10
and we can help you out so they know it
21:12
that's very
21:13
they got lots of if I’m on the receiving
21:17
end of this and my client has
21:19
received uh been inundated with letters
21:21
from attorneys trying to scope them
21:23
uh it's supposed to say it has an
21:25
this is an advertisement if it
21:27
doesn't who do i
21:28
who can I refer this to uh you to the
21:31
grievance committee
21:32
and you know I think you can also
21:35
I’m not sure of this not but I will find
21:37
out because of this
21:38
I think you can to the advertising
21:41
review committee
21:42
and they will refer it on
21:45
saying you know that they did not look
21:47
at they sent and now I’ve I’ve counseled
21:49
hundreds of
21:51
lawyers and many dozens of law firms and
21:54
seen them get in trouble
21:55
where it's in an innocuous letter where
21:58
they think hey
21:59
and I saw those exactly what you're
22:00
talking about Stuart and Belinda I see
22:02
There are lawyers that monitor every case
22:05
that gets filed the district clerk's
22:06
office
22:07
and they're just amazing and on how
22:10
because they'll look at the petition and
22:11
say oh they're suing john doe and he
22:13
lives at 123
22:14
elm street and they'll write a letter to
22:16
john doe hey I see you've been sued you
22:17
know we're good lawyers for this type of
22:18
suit
22:19
so they look at the petition where
22:21
they're going to serve it they just send
22:22
them a letter they beat the
22:24
the uh the service uh there to the house
22:28
so it's kind of yes pablo uh one
22:31
question caught and this is something
22:32
that i actually have to tell a lot of my
22:34
attorneys
22:34
also at trla when they start off and
22:36
they ask me you know i see this person
22:38
coming
22:38
these are going to be pro bonos
22:39
listening to this and they're going to
22:40
maybe see some of the examples you're
22:42
talking about
22:43
what i think they might want to be
22:44
careful with too is 4.04
22:47
which you know prohibits uh well you
22:49
should not
22:50
then put out the threat you're going to
22:52
file grievance against an attorney if
22:53
you're doing it strictly for advancement
22:54
of your civil matter
22:56
and i think a lot of us kind of slide
22:57
into a violation early on not realizing
22:59
that there is such a rule
23:01
uh and um yes I’m wondering you can
23:04
talk about that so pro bonus they see
23:06
the solicitation or the barratry and the
23:07
reporters don't go and
23:09
trip into that 4.04 violation yeah um
23:13
one of the earliest things i learned
23:15
when I was prosecuted at the state bar
23:17
was you can't threaten
23:21
you can't threaten the grievance to gain
23:23
an advantage in a civil matter
23:26
um you know so it's almost better if you
23:29
really are
23:30
sincere just to notify the bar and don't
23:34
don't say you stop or I’m gonna notify
23:36
the bar
23:37
now the other part of that I’d say
23:40
is real important. I’m glad you brought
23:41
this up that people don't understand
23:43
is that you know um
23:47
404 also says that's the one rule
23:50
every time I go over the disciplinary
23:51
rules and the cle I say you know we know
23:54
we have these duties to our clients we
23:55
know we have fiduciary duties but
23:57
remember
23:58
there's one rule in just about every
24:00
state that says
24:01
you can't lie to the opposing party on a
24:04
matter of material
24:05
significance so if you let's use the
24:09
case where you're doing a collection
24:11
and you notify a guy okay I’m
24:12
representing a guy he wants 2,500 dollars
24:14
I’ll tell you what if you pay him 2,100
24:18
now you know he'll settle the case okay
24:21
the pro bono person on the other side
24:22
I probe say says okay let me think about
24:25
it calls you back two weeks okay I’ll
24:26
pay twenty-one hundred dollars
24:27
where do I have to check you and you
24:29
lines oh gosh
24:30
under the state law you only had seven
24:32
days to accept my offer and I have to
24:34
charge you ten percent more
24:35
well that's a lie you've misread you can
24:37
be grieved against you that you can be
24:39
disciplined for telling
24:41
that um material a lie of material fact
24:44
to the other party so those are that's
24:46
the other 404
24:47
uh thing that we have to always remind
24:49
people never make a misrepresentation
24:52
a material fact to an opposing party in
24:54
a lawsuit or claim or
24:56
any other uh thing as well as don't
24:59
don't
25:00
threaten a grievance uh against them
25:04
did that answer your question it does
25:06
Claude
25:07
it does actually uh and I think the
25:09
usual scenario that we see in our case
25:11
is in disaster assistance and you might
25:12
have some pro bono attorneys going to
25:14
like these clinics or disaster relief
25:15
centers and they sit and
25:16
listen and this is one that actually
25:18
happened a few years ago
25:19
and was prosecuted is that
25:22
they go around with the roofing
25:24
contracts and they make you signal
25:25
documents you know and then one of those
25:27
is actually attorney-client relationship
25:29
you actually have an attorney then hired
25:30
for your case you didn't even know about
25:31
and
25:32
that's an actual case it was prosecuted
25:34
by I think the at the federal level
25:36
for um that does not surprise me at all
25:39
I’m
25:39
always amazed I’ve seen so many
25:41
grievances
25:42
at just the chutzpah of these attorneys
25:45
of the things that they do I mean some
25:47
of them will
25:48
you know there's a certain part of the
25:50
state where this happens a lot where
25:51
they will have already hired an attorney
25:53
and they'll
25:54
they'll go over to the attorney's house so
25:55
I can get you out of this contract and
25:57
sign mine
26:00
what yeah here's both paths of
26:02
your contract that I tore in half
26:04
uh yeah it's just
26:07
let me just say I’m actually in south
26:09
texas in the valley so I’m glad you
26:10
didn't say what area of texas but
26:13
but through my experience of the
26:14
commission for discipline in six years i
26:15
realized that it happens everywhere as
26:17
soon as the disaster hit
26:18
east texas it can be in the north you
26:20
know when tornadoes hit
26:21
it's something about you know the
26:23
a vulnerable population is created after a
26:24
disaster
26:25
that just makes people just prey upon
26:27
them and yes it is by the way one of
26:29
one of the um changes and that I’m sure
26:32
we're going to
26:33
work our way through is that now if if
26:36
somebody
26:37
uh refers you in case you still can't
26:39
pay them but you can give them what say
26:42
a thank you of nominal value as
26:45
like you can take them out to dinner you
26:47
can you know do something like that
26:49
and of course, it doesn't really say what
26:50
that is and I’m sure we'll find out in
26:52
the comments in the coming years
26:54
what consists of nominal value in Dallas
26:56
versus south texas
26:58
oh well I’m sure we're going to push the
27:00
limit on those definitions for sure
27:03
that's a nominal value you know oh i
27:05
mean john grisham is going to be
27:06
inspired by some of the stuff that we're
27:08
going to do with that rule I’m sure here
27:09
but we'll see
27:10
but uh i don't know i think stuart did
27:13
you want to ask anything about the
27:14
Attorney client relationship
27:15
aspect yeah so um
27:18
according to Pablo's notes i don't know
27:20
this stuff but according to Pablo's
27:21
notes
27:22
uh it says by far the most prosecutions
27:25
of these types of grievances involve
27:27
rule 101.01 and 1.02
27:30
and uh and this part I do know about is
27:33
that uh
27:35
a lot of times when we refer to not a
27:37
lot of times but sometimes when we
27:39
refer a case to a pro bono attorney
27:42
I’ve seen this happen on
27:43
on the bankruptcy side of the pro bono
27:44
stuff in fort worth
27:46
um we hear back from the uh
27:50
the client hey you referred me to this
27:53
person
27:53
three months ago why haven't I heard
27:55
from him oh
27:57
and so I was wondering if you could
27:58
kind of address that uh
28:00
your duties as a pro bono attorney or as
28:03
any attorney
28:03
under rule uh 1.01 and 1.02
28:07
sure yeah let me say one of the best
28:10
things I say about
28:11
being a speaker across the country
28:15
is that as well and hopefully it'll open
28:17
up again because
28:18
I had some wonderful trips at these
28:20
conferences where I get invited speaking
28:21
I hear some other absolutely
28:23
terrific speakers and that I was in a
28:27
big meeting in Montreal and speaking one
28:30
of
28:31
these lawyers had done um uh and this i
28:34
promise
28:34
Stuart relates to what you're talking
28:36
about he did a
28:38
study of 10 years of malpractice cases
28:41
and categorized them and what percentage
28:44
of
28:45
um cases actually rely on a good faith
28:48
error by
28:49
by the lawyer um and I loved giving
28:53
this to a live crowd I said okay what
28:54
percentage of malpractice
28:55
cases generally speaking in the last 10
28:57
years were based upon the lawyer
28:59
actually making an
29:00
error well cutting you to the chase it
29:03
did vary some
29:04
somebody a little more but basically 15
29:07
the other 85 is because you pissed
29:10
off that client so badly
29:12
the number one grievance in America and
29:14
Canada
29:15
is my lawyer won't call me back I can't
29:18
get a hold of my lawyer
29:21
uh my lord you know and so it
29:24
I drill that in that this is a
29:26
relationship you have to tend
29:28
like a garden, it can change
29:31
weeds can grow in it you know and it's
29:34
because
29:34
lots of times you think you're going to
29:36
help and then you look at it
29:37
it's a lot more complicated I’m talking
29:39
from the perspective of the lawyer and
29:41
so it ends up in a bottom drawer
29:43
someplace and when that
29:44
client calls you have your legal
29:46
assistant say I’m in court
29:48
guess what you're not in court nobody's
29:50
in court
29:51
so quit using that excuse that I’m sorry
29:54
in court today, no he's not he's either
29:58
he's sitting behind a light with a zoom
30:00
camera at the very
30:02
best so um but it is so
30:05
important that you talk to that client
30:07
that you listen well
30:09
I always ask young lawyers you know when
30:11
I give this
30:12
lecture to third-year law students I say
30:15
all right this is a wonderful law school
30:16
if I was in Baylor last march and I said
30:19
you know gosh you're all going to pass
30:20
the bar this is the highest passage rate
30:23
now I want a show of hands and I’m
30:24
talking they're big I don't know where
30:25
you went to school but that big survey
30:27
room where all
30:28
the three of the sections how many of
30:30
you were taught how to interview a
30:31
client
30:32
two hands go up and one of them was a
30:35
professor
30:36
uh so you know so it was nobody
30:39
learns that and you have to learn we
30:41
have to learn from our psychotherapy
30:43
colleagues that healing begins when
30:45
people think they're being listened to
30:47
call that client call that person
30:51
let them know you're interested don't
30:53
interrupt them
30:54
they're you know one of the lectures i
30:56
listened to this morning in my long
30:58
15-minute walks I tried to take in the
31:00
morning to keep inside
31:01
is that the way you tell a story has a
31:04
big
31:05
uh influence on outcome and I don't mean
31:07
how
31:08
how great you speak it's the order that
31:10
you tell the facts
31:12
can lead to success or failure so go
31:15
through those facts with the client
31:16
because
31:17
you want to put them in an order that
31:19
the judge will understand there's just
31:21
so
31:22
there's a lot to this believe it or not
31:23
being a lawyer representing someone
31:25
yeah oh um
31:29
I just also want to reiterate for our
31:31
Pro bono volunteers
31:32
listening we do help disaster survivors
31:35
so
31:36
in addition to listening, you're also
31:37
dealing with some trauma they're
31:39
homeless they've lost
31:40
they've just watched all their stuff
31:43
float downstream
31:45
or blow away or catch on fire so
31:48
yeah be empathetic be sure you're
31:52
listening to him
31:52
they're going to be frazzled sometimes
31:54
they're not going to remember everything
31:56
they're dealing with a lot of
31:57
stuff at the time so don't take it that
32:00
they're trying to deceive you it's just
32:02
there is a lot going on and their legal
32:05
case may not be at the top of their
32:07
priority list right now
32:09
they need to get their kids food they
32:10
need to get power on in their house
32:13
so as far as being a good listener
32:16
that's one of the things we always go
32:18
over our new volunteers
32:20
and just basic cultural competency in
32:22
general and dealing with legal aid
32:23
clients
32:24
exactly thank you for saying that
32:26
because that is so so important
32:28
I always state it this way when I’m
32:30
giving the lecture
32:31
few people wake up in the morning say
32:34
you know what
32:35
the sun is shining the birdies are
32:36
tweeting I’m gonna go hire a lawyer
32:39
you know it usually relates to a huge
32:41
and unexpected
32:42
failure in their life the loss of
32:46
someone a betrayal by the most important
32:49
person in their life
32:50
they're going through the stages of
32:51
grief you have to calculate that in
32:54
and belinda as you said and Stuart as
32:56
you see in a lot of time it's like
32:58
you know yeah I gotta talk to you but i
33:00
don't know where dinner's coming from
33:01
tonight so you
33:02
have to figure that in be empathetic do
33:05
not be a machine
33:08
let them talk to you you know why
33:10
because ultimately
33:11
the goal of your interview with that
33:14
client and I want you
33:15
to write these two words down is
33:18
reasonable
33:19
expectations that is they understand
33:21
what you can do
33:23
and you understand what they can do
33:26
both sides have to be on that re you
33:28
can't just say well when I call you you
33:30
have to call back within five minutes
33:31
that is not a reasonable expectation
33:34
but they do expect you to call back in a
33:37
you'd contact them and that is actually
33:40
your duty whether you're getting paid or
33:42
not you can get your license suspended
33:45
if you breach that and harm someone so
33:48
be empathetic yeah and caught and
33:51
actually and I wanted to make this point
33:52
also for our pro bono volunteers how
33:54
they're not listening to this and
33:55
thinking oh my gosh I’m gonna take a pro
33:56
bono case and then find a grievance on
33:57
this and
33:58
I think my intent to share with the
34:00
notes here on the experience that I saw
34:01
from the prosecution's
34:02
be in the commission for lawyer
34:04
discipline is that it was so easy to
34:06
slip into a violation of 1.02
34:08
communication or 1.01
34:10
just because you didn't call back and i
34:11
think the mindset sometimes what
34:13
happened that you prioritize cases
34:14
because you have the business model of
34:16
practicing law you prioritize cases
34:17
you're going to call them back maybe
34:19
and it's possible that the pro bono case
34:20
might not you know
34:22
level up or come up to important matters
34:24
and before you know it you haven't
34:25
returned a call
34:26
you haven't done some work on it and you
34:27
might slide into the 1.02
34:29
it's so easy to just email text call the
34:32
client
34:32
and they just know what they're working
34:34
on my case they're doing this much how
34:35
that can go a long way and I wanted to
34:37
just kind of emphasize that in a minute
34:38
see that was your experience too with
34:40
the cases you've seen
34:41
and let me just tell you let me give you
34:43
three little rules
34:45
very easy rules every time
34:49
and you have to watch out for
34:50
anytime your client calls you and sort
34:52
of changes the narrative
34:54
or changes of fact always respond
34:58
and say that's not what we talked about
35:00
in our meeting on February 23rd
35:03
I’m saying did this just come up
35:05
recently if
35:06
they say to you for example well you
35:08
said this would be done by March 15
35:10
and you're going no I didn't you don't
35:12
just
35:13
shrug and turn away and go get a coke
35:16
you know you
35:17
you respond no no no no no that's
35:19
because
35:20
we count back to them what you talked
35:22
about that number two
35:24
the other thing uh that's number one
35:25
number two I have I got in a
35:28
really good and long before we got into
35:30
these the whole talk about vaccines i
35:32
used to call it the vaccine
35:34
what I got into the habit 20 years ago is
35:36
going in on a Sunday afternoon to my
35:37
office and writing
35:39
uh 15 two-sentence emails to clients hi
35:42
bob
35:42
I know you were expecting the
35:43
interrogatory answers on January 15th
35:45
they asked for an extension that's why
35:47
we haven't gotten them yet there they
35:49
have until uh
35:50
February 15th just want you to know I’m
35:52
thinking about your case
35:53
call me that's like an inoculation
35:55
against agreements
35:57
just that reach out that pro-active
36:00
reach out to your clients that's
36:01
that's rule number two and number three
36:05
is what we
36:05
already talked be empathetic just
36:08
because your client
36:09
is stressed and perhaps is saying things
36:11
that he wouldn't say under normal
36:13
circumstances
36:14
does not give you the right to respond
36:16
in kind
36:18
uh you know you know they will say
36:20
because people are horribly stressed out
36:22
and try to take a breath and say I
36:25
don't want anything I get
36:26
I say to be up on a PowerPoint you know
36:29
so
36:29
uh that's the way I look at it I’ve been
36:31
on too many grievances and said did you
36:33
really call him an *********
36:35
um yeah I guess i did I’m sorry yeah
36:38
so think about that take a breath you're
36:41
the professional
36:42
you always have the duty to be the
36:44
professional
36:45
you know and caught I want to also
36:46
mention to our pro bono is that one of
36:48
the things the benefits of us placing
36:49
cases with you all is that i'm sure
36:51
stuart and belinda see there in their
36:53
programs we can help you with the
36:55
communication if you have overwhelmed
36:57
and you want to tell the client what's
36:58
going on
36:59
you let us know a little bit about that
37:00
and then we can go ahead and you know
37:01
give a call to client and we actually
37:03
have a sense of a duty to do that
37:04
because we have to make sure that the
37:06
services are provided for that client
37:08
the problem with that balancing their uh
37:10
Claude is that
37:11
then I think sometimes some pro bonos
37:13
might feel that okay well
37:15
it's their case it's not really my case
37:16
and I just kind of emphasize you have an
37:18
attorney-client relationship with that
37:20
client you've got to deal with the case
37:21
responsibly it's not our case we'll help
37:23
you with it
37:23
and so I want to see if you could talk
37:25
about that, you know that the balancing
37:26
act that happens there or to understand
37:28
that it is an attorney-client relationship
37:29
it's a case you got to take and move
37:30
forward
37:31
well let me refer to what I always tell
37:33
young lawyers generally about the road
37:36
to success
37:37
and it applies to your pro bono action
37:39
too
37:40
um always do your part of the work
37:44
in my experience the longer you let that
37:46
pro bono's case that you agreed to take
37:48
just sit there thinking I’ll get to it
37:50
you won't get to
37:51
if you jump honestly my
37:55
experience has been the quicker you jump
37:57
on it the faster it's going to be over
37:59
and it'll be over much more quickly if
38:01
the other side sees that there's
38:02
somebody who's going to
38:04
get onto it quickly and it's just not
38:06
going to languish and
38:07
do that the other thing is I said if
38:09
you've promised someone
38:12
the secret to success is to do what you
38:15
say you do when you say you're going to
38:17
do it
38:18
I cannot stress that enough if I could
38:19
say it 100 times if I’ve promised
38:21
another
38:22
lawyer that I will have the decree of
38:24
the divorce there on Wednesday
38:26
it's there on Wednesday we all know
38:28
lawyers in our towns
38:30
that whenever we see him or her on the
38:33
other side
38:33
we look at our legal assistant and say
38:36
we're going to be doing
38:37
every document in this case because
38:39
there will be at least
38:40
uh three grandparents that die during
38:42
this case that they can't
38:44
you know they'll be you know I’m sorry
38:46
their dog
38:47
got run over during ...I can't there's
38:50
always an excuse that they come up with
38:51
and we're ready for it
38:53
and I just would you ever refer a case
38:56
to that lawyer
38:57
who does that to you never the way you
39:00
succeed is do what you say you're doing
39:02
on time and then everybody says because
39:05
we came up through an era I’m 69 years
39:07
old where there was no
39:08
internet there was no anything all of my
39:11
work
39:12
came from other lawyers who said it's
39:15
fun to do
39:16
business with Claude he's on time he's
39:18
pleasant to deal with he's
39:19
accurate and for my own clients who have
39:22
the same feeling
39:23
there was no advertising all of my
39:24
success came from
39:26
other lawyers and my own clients and
39:28
that's the way that the
39:30
to build your success and I will tell
39:32
you doing
39:33
pro bono work is the work of god I mean
39:36
it I’m just telling you it is just
39:38
so important and so you are all such
39:41
important cogs
39:43
in the justice system a justice system
39:45
that's tilting up on two wheels every
39:47
now and then
39:48
uh and we need you out there to to
39:52
show everyone what the rule of law
39:54
means and thank god
39:56
that we had that in December
39:59
and you know before that finally it
40:02
helped
40:03
they brought these nonsensical lawsuits
40:05
and they said
40:06
sorry gotta have evidence here no
40:09
evidencey no judgmenty
40:11
you know uh so
40:14
you're really important yeah pablo did
40:16
you ever
40:17
I do and I’m uh i hate to hog
40:20
this but you know I do it almost every
40:22
time anyway so they're Stuart Belinda
40:23
of use to this um
40:25
but uh another thing that I actually
40:26
didn't put down in the notes when we
40:27
shared with you when preparing for this
40:28
but i think it's happening now and i
40:30
wanted to hear from you
40:31
the uniform bar exam now is in place in
40:33
texas so you have attorneys that might
40:35
be able to license
40:36
in several states might practice
40:37
somewhere else and then come into texas
40:39
then you know and then
40:40
and start the practicing there that
40:42
plus there
40:43
exists something like that already when
40:45
disaster hits you have emergency supreme
40:47
court orders that allow for another
40:48
state attorney to assist a certain
40:50
extent
40:51
with the disaster recovery so they have
40:52
to come in you know and apply their
40:53
knowledge maybe to a federal case of
40:55
FEMA benefits bankruptcy that can be
40:57
interchangeable I never thought about
40:59
this but
41:00
how would she recommend that as a pro
41:02
bono community or a local attorney in an
41:04
area see these folks coming in from
41:06
other jurisdictions
41:07
how would you recommend that you explain
41:09
to them where they can go to to learn
41:11
disciplinary people's professional
41:12
conduct and not stumble into a violation
41:15
well of course there's wonderful online
41:17
courses
41:18
on that and in fact I there is one i
41:21
think that I do on the
41:22
on trust accounting all those kind of
41:24
things that the uh if
41:27
what uh the chief disability council is
41:30
they have to watch that hour
41:32
as part of their cle punishment on how
41:35
to do their trust account so there's
41:36
there's lots of good resources
41:38
out there I will tell you honestly I’ve
41:41
probably represented almost 200 kids
41:43
over the last 40 years for the board of
41:44
law examiners too
41:46
and it's this is Claude on it right now
41:49
because of this whole shutdown
41:51
it's everything is really slow and
41:54
stodgy
41:55
and everything but my experience has
41:57
been if you want to
41:58
learn and judge and see and if someone
42:01
will
42:02
sign on to you to practice pro hoc vice
42:04
and say yes
42:05
claude will be ultimately responsible
42:07
I’ve only known one or two attorneys
42:09
and there's for the right reason where a
42:11
judge didn't let them practice pro hoc
42:13
vice
42:14
or pro hoc vichay if you went to catholic
42:16
school um
42:17
you know so you know
42:21
that’s the way to to learn it but
42:23
there's nothing like being
42:24
thrown in the lion's den saying here's
42:26
what it is or have a mentorship
42:28
I’ve been
42:32
involved in many mentor programs and one
42:34
comment on those
42:35
is some of the lawyers I see that need
42:37
mentors don't ask for them
42:39
and some of the lawyers ask for them are
42:40
just great they're so easy to mentor
42:42
because they really ask
42:43
good question and they're easy to do but
42:46
reach out find I always say what is the
42:49
best research tool
42:50
in the state of texas for lawyers it's
42:52
called the telephone
42:54
call a lawyer who knows how to do that
42:57
area
42:58
lawyers love to help other lawyers
43:00
especially lawyers that are doing things
43:02
uh pro bono I will bend over backwards
43:05
you know
43:06
giving you forms and pleadings and
43:08
anything
43:09
that you want so reach out to other
43:13
lawyers they're
43:14
great great source of health inspiration
43:17
and support
43:19
we can attest to the fact that you're
43:20
recording this on Friday afternoon
43:22
at two three o'clock so i mean anybody
43:24
that does this for pro bono attorneys
43:26
and legal aid's got to be
43:27
a special you know and support it then
43:29
we're going to ask a question I don't
43:30
want to continue
43:31
making other points oh I was just going
43:33
to reiterate what Claude said it's like
43:35
yeah if you're having
43:36
a problem or you feel like a little over
43:39
your head reach out to us
43:40
we have mentorship we have housing
43:43
unions we have public benefits units
43:45
that people who do this every day and
43:46
can answer your questions
43:48
um if even with the communication if
43:51
you're getting a little behind
43:52
let us know if you're having trouble
43:53
contacting a client let us know
43:55
we are we want to make this experience
43:58
as painless as possible and get a good
44:01
result
44:02
and let me also say there's some
44:04
additional
44:05
benefits besides just that you're a good
44:08
person
44:09
um uh and you're earning grace to go to
44:13
heaven but uh
44:14
there's a side benefits are a lot of
44:16
times you get exposed to the areas of
44:18
the law
44:19
and you learn from this and you say you
44:21
know what I like this area of the law
44:23
I did my first civil uh habeas corpus
44:27
on a you know it was actually the mom
44:29
that ran awaywith the child and I was
44:31
appointed to do that i was
44:33
a 35-year lawyer I hadn't done one of
44:34
those before but I thought you know I’ve
44:36
done hundreds of divorces I think i
44:38
could figure this out and i did and i
44:40
won that case and that was something
44:42
like you know I would
44:43
never have been exposed except i got to
44:46
sign that case
44:47
by a pro bono agency and it was a really
44:50
good experience and learning how to do
44:52
housing law learning labor law and
44:54
learning those things
44:55
is a terrific side benefit and you know
44:59
a lot of my experience that I learned is
45:02
because of being thrown into things that
45:05
maybe I didn't really want to do
45:07
but it's given me this wealth of
45:09
experience and
45:10
led me to doing last year I did 121 cle
45:14
speeches
45:15
in all 50 states so uh and I think
45:18
people
45:19
like most the stories of of how i
45:22
learned this and
45:23
what I did wrong I said i always start
45:26
this way I wish I could say i'm smart
45:27
enough that
45:28
i can do all this i'm probably telling
45:30
you everything i did wrong
45:32
as a lawyer you know little tricks like
45:34
going to trial
45:35
and my very first jury trial was on the
45:37
defense side and i had a great poster
45:39
for my closing argument
45:41
well the first the plaintiff lawyer gets
45:43
up and does his closing argument and
45:45
draws through it with a magic marker
45:47
you know just he ruins my exhibit well
45:50
what do you do
45:51
how do you stop that you mark it as an
45:53
exhibit put a sticker on it then he
45:55
can't do that to you see a little tiny
45:57
trick
45:58
that you learn by making the mistake so
46:01
don't be scared of doing it
46:02
you get great you you sleep better at
46:04
night you help people it's wonderful you
46:06
for your own psyche
46:08
it keeps you going you know what we have
46:11
to keep tied to our time here claude i
46:12
know you've got another commitment so
46:13
we're almost near the end but I wanted
46:15
to just make a point before
46:16
uh I forget about this and you might not
46:18
know about this but if you take on a pro
46:20
bono case and it's in the field that
46:21
you're not
46:22
like the behaviors you mentioned about
46:24
you can actually earn up to five hours
46:26
of cle
46:27
for that pro bono case for having
46:28
there's something new and as a mentor
46:30
he can also actually gain a cle credit
46:33
to mentor somebody else along the way so
46:35
if it's a pro bono case you're going
46:36
through ethical issues, you find a mentor
46:38
that gives some information
46:39
consider calling us letting us know
46:40
about it so you can gain some cle credit
46:42
and get at least one-fifth of your cle
46:44
requirements that way
46:46
um as we're about to end here claude i
46:47
want to ask you for a story because uh
46:50
let me tell you what i've learned um on
46:52
the commission for
46:53
discipline remember seeing some names of
46:55
respondents counseling you were part of
46:56
that
46:57
you know you see some people you're like
46:58
okay this person needs to help this
46:59
attorney right complain
47:01
this person if somebody was there to
47:02
give a mentorship it'd be great come out
47:04
of this
47:04
and more often than not your name and a
47:06
few other people are like okay they're
47:07
involved they're gonna take him out of
47:09
there they're gonna
47:10
they're gonna make sure that they're
47:11
fine and they're gonna correct their
47:12
waste and that was always a positive
47:13
thing I think
47:14
to see some help being given to them do
47:16
you want to tell us a story for our pro
47:18
bono attorneys maybe
47:19
you know one that you remember where you
47:20
came in an attorney was just came in to
47:22
you at a very
47:22
dark heavy time and you assisted and
47:26
helped him in some way that now
47:27
improved his way and learned from that
47:29
well yes
47:31
I got a call for a lawyer and actually I
47:33
think this is a wonderful lawyer but he
47:35
was in the
47:36
depths of depression we have taken on
47:38
this thing
47:39
and i just want you all to know when
47:41
I’m telling this story I think we all
47:43
feel this way
47:44
he was going through what the
47:47
psychologists call imposter syndrome
47:49
said
47:49
I’m not good enough to do this I’m
47:52
depressed and I feel like I ought to
47:53
just quit
47:54
and I just ought to pack my bag and uh
47:57
you know we talked
47:58
we went to lunch together and I just
48:00
talked and I told him
48:02
I just want you know we all feel this
48:04
way every morning I get up and I think
48:06
am I good enough to do this today and
48:09
you know I get a little better but
48:12
going out and doing it
48:14
I never picked a jury without having you
48:16
know
48:17
to evacuate so to speak before I did it
48:20
because it was it was never
48:21
uh you know it was no and then once i
48:23
get started boom I’m on stage and I’m
48:25
going but we all feel that way the fact
48:27
that you feel
48:28
insecure and that you're not good enough
48:30
is what we all go through but you
48:32
are and you're doing the right things
48:34
and you need to reach out to people like
48:35
me
48:36
for for just to confirm it and your
48:39
other people because you're well thought
48:40
of
48:41
and you're going to do a great job in
48:44
this and it really does help people
48:45
get through I don't know if that's a
48:47
A story that you wanted but that's a
48:49
typical thing that we go through to
48:51
reassure people
48:53
that they're okay and that's normal for
48:55
them to feel stressed out
48:59
no, I think that's what we need and we
49:01
need that the claude because I think you
49:02
heard us talking about
49:03
when you have disaster recovery not only
49:05
is the community going through that but
49:07
you as an attorney might also be going
49:08
through it, your office might have been
49:09
affected your work your courts
49:11
and I think we talked about that in
49:13
other issues like
49:14
I feel that we get a wave of volunteers
49:17
coming in for disaster assistance
49:18
because
49:18
they're trying to say how can we all
49:20
recover from this how can I help out
49:22
and it makes the person feel a little
49:24
bit better i can't even imagine waking
49:25
up you know that one day
49:27
you're thinking this there's so much
49:28
going on I can't get to my office I go
49:29
to my pro bono case and then this
49:31
imposter syndrome comes about I mean why
49:32
am I doing this am I doing the right
49:34
thing so
49:35
to have you who's given 120 some
49:37
presentations on cle say that
49:39
that you go through that I think is
49:40
something that at least for us here as
49:42
an audience can say that
49:43
it's good to know that we all go through
49:44
that because um it can't weigh heavily
49:46
upon you and I think how many
49:48
grievances can have been avoided if somebody
49:50
just told somebody else that you know
49:52
we're all in the same boat kind of like
49:53
in law school
49:54
you know we're all in the same boat
49:56
we're all going to be having a difficult
49:57
time here
49:58
so I think and the problem is that
49:59
hollywood lies to us hollywood says that
50:02
they're
50:02
we're full of energy and all we have to
50:03
do is make one phone call and someone's
50:05
going to run over a million dollar check
50:07
to us
50:08
and i'm going, not in this universe so
50:11
you know so don't watch LA law that
50:14
everybody just
50:15
you know got to porsche their second year
50:20
Claude I think we've taken up here a lot
50:21
of your time when we're getting down to
50:23
the hour here I don't know belinda
50:24
Stuart you have anything else to say or
50:26
comment before we
50:26
log on out here and let clot continue
50:29
with this Friday
50:30
aside from thank you it's been great
50:32
thank you thank you so much for doing
50:34
this
50:35
it was my pleasure to call we're very
50:38
lucky to have you here
50:39
thank you so much not only for what you
50:40
do for the service uh for you and i
50:42
i got to tell you I don't know this but
50:44
I oversee the pro bono program also or
50:45
some of the projects in the trla and i
50:47
remember going to
50:48
the divorce at one of the clinics there
50:50
at in austin and there you were almost
50:51
every time I was there that you come in
50:53
do your five six interviews and then
50:55
take off you know it was amazing you see
50:56
i'm like that's god right there he's so
50:58
busy but he still finds time to do the
50:59
pro bono work so
51:01
thank you for all those years of service
51:02
and before you did for the profession
51:04
thanks everybody and everybody keep the
51:07
faith